bias dice question

Discussion in 'General Craps Discussion' started by LZNam, May 17, 2011.


  1. LZNam

    LZNam Member

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    I have been reading a lot about unbalanced dice.

    I have seen them put the dice on a dice caliper but that doesn't mean they remove the bad dice.

    Do you know of any quick test that a shooter can tell before they shoot if the dice are bad or not? I was wondering if picking the dice up and dropping them do any good . Do the people who do that get any info or is it all superstition?

    For my own personal record I will be keeping track at my local casino what the numbers are when I person seven's out. ei 4/3 5/2 6/1


    Your thoughts?
     
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  2. Hardeight, May 17, 2011

    Hardeight

    Hardeight Member

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    I just take a die one by one and shake it.They should feel hollow thats how I check.

    You should buy a few packs of dice (regular white or whatever you choose) and tape a dime to one side and compare the weights.Thats how you get better at determining which dice are suspicious.

    I see people just cupping all the dice at once and dropping them its an iffy way to tell but I have tried it.
     
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  3. $nakeEye$, May 17, 2011

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    Absent any other measure short of checking the balance with calipers - and Good Luck attempting to do that at the casino - there are 2 measures which might shed some light on if you are playing in a fair game or not:

    1. Do a short roll or drop from 12-18 inches above the table surface with the 5 dice that you are initially offerred - possibly if a bias does exist it might be readily apparent if one or more die turn up on the same number - then again - maybe not.

    2. You could watch the table for a period of time or inquire at the table as to how the dice / table is doing - cold - choppy- if its hot - you might not be able to get a spot.

    Harley is the one to speak to regarding this subject - he is extremely familiar with all the nuances that bad dice exhibit and what to look for - haven't heard from him on this board for about a month or so - you might try to send him a PM - or visit his website - the address is in his signature.
     
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  4. Southern-Comfort, May 17, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

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    Before they offer you the dice they are in the bowl. They gently (or not) roll them out of it. When they push you towrd them check for any two that equal seven. Grab them for the comeout roll only! :) and have them let you change the dice when you get a point established, and get a pair that do not equal seven.
    Personally, I have trouble accepting that any reputable casino would risk the noteriety of using rigged dice.
    But then again, I also have trouble accepting that any casino is reputable.
    Therefore I trust the dice are legit but accept that it is a good possibility that they aren't.
     
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  5. $nakeEye$, May 17, 2011

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    I was under the assumption that unless 1 or both dice left the table - you could not change the dice - samo - samo to a PL bet - its for the duration - until a decision is made - win or lose.

    Are you certain that this dice changing option is allowable ?

    Have you done this yourself - or have you seen someone actually do this ?
     
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  6. Southern-Comfort, May 17, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

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    I have to say that seems like an odd question to me. Logic says they would be happy to make sure you are using a die you may have slipped in. But I check a couple of dealer manuals.

    "Craps: Dealing and Supervision" says nothing about what to do if the shooter asks for different dice.

    "Precision Craps Dealing" doesn't address it directly but does have this in the list of stickman's resposibilities.
    "11.) Sometimes a shooter will toss the dice to the stickman and ask for new dice. Since the
    player does not intend this to be a roll, but it might be interpreted to be a roll, be sure you call
    “no roll” and slap the dice or catch them before they stop."

    And yes, I have on one occasion asked to be given the choice of all five and it was granted. Now asking for a new stick may be a different issue.
     
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  7. $nakeEye$, May 18, 2011

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    S-C;

    Out of curiosity, are you involved with the casinos - I have no problem with that one way or the other - I am inquiring solely because the books that you quote are not typically on the top 10 ( top 100 ) of the players list of craps books - but OTOH would be right up there for the casino dealer / aspiring manager.

    Regardless, where can one get their hands on these gems ?
     
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  8. Southern-Comfort, May 18, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

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    I'm not on the casino payroll. Its more a matter of "know your enemy", or if you prefer, "Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer".
    And, yes, I guess I do typically read the casino side rather than the player side.

    "Craps: Dealing and Supervision" is available on Amazon (or if in Vegas I believe its available at Gamblers General Store and/or Spinettis.

    "Precision Craps Dealing" is available only online. I forget the guy's site but you can probably google it.

    And I don't whine when you guys are quoting the novelists.
     
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  9. Hardeight, May 18, 2011

    Hardeight

    Hardeight Member

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    3 of the dice are clean and 2 are heated to land on certain numbers. I am assuming that its the 6 and 5 so if you see alot of 11s then that person has bad dice.But of course if they bet the 11 they are perfect.
     
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  10. Hardeight, May 18, 2011

    Hardeight

    Hardeight Member

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    But at Sugarhouse there are times when 4 of the dice are shady.I rarely change dice but in the PA casinos they give you all five dice back to chose from.BUT AC they give me a selection of the remaining three I am assuming its a state rules thing.Any feedback on this?
     
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  11. The Midnight Skulker, May 18, 2011

    The Midnight Skulker

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    Except when I've thrown a die away, which I hardly ever do, only once have I even thought of changing dice in the middle of a hand. I noticed the one face of one of the dice had a gouge about the size of the pip in it, as though it had been stepped on by someone with a rock stuck in their shoe. I tossed the die to the base dealer, saying something like, "This baby is pretty beat up. How about another one?" The stick immediately presented me with the remaining three dice while the base dealer examined the defective die, shortly putting it on the rail.

    Side comment 1: I have to admit I was somewhat hesitant to say anything, for if my next roll had been a 7-out I fear my popularity with the other players would have plummeted even more than if I had not switched dice.

    Side comment 2: To my surprise the pit suit returned the die to play after examining it.
     
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  12. Harley, May 18, 2011

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    Sorry guys -- I have been traveling a lot lately - dodging the Mississippi muddy waters in Tunica and trying to close on a house within spittin distance of the Las Vegas Strip

    With today's technology, Biased Dice are made by the case with most every stick in that case exactly biased the same --- so track your serial numbers while you are charting the dice -- and chart the individual dice, just not the sum of the dice. Build a distribution pyramid with your chart right there on the spot so you know what you are dealing with.

    I was at O'Sheas not too long ago when a chicken feeder was chunking from table end -- he threw the dice 13 times and the number 5 showed up on at least 11 of those tosses ... of course his Seven-out (as well as 3 7s within his roll) was by a 5-2. Just another Cinco-Dos Adios ...

    With heavily biased dice such as these, the casino is increasing the house edge beyond anything that is fair so the best thing to do is demand fair balanced dice or run away as fast as you can. Until we let the casinos know that we know they are cheating, we will continue to see unbalanced dice. Your choice, keep your head in the sand or do something about it.

    As $nakeEyes mentioned above, read my free website linked below for more information on Biased Dice

    Then Good Luck at the tables !!
     
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  13. LZNam

    LZNam Member

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    Harley it was your web site I was reading that got me thinking about bias dice at the casino that I play at.

    I wrote to the Missouri Gaming Commission and asked them

    Can the casinos in Missouri use unbalanced dice in their craps games?

    What are the requirements for dice in Missouri to be used in a craps game?

    With in a day they wrote me back.

    They wrote

    All dice must be examined by the box person prior to use in Missouri casinos to ensure they are free of any flaws which might bias or alter game outcomes. This inspection verifies every die is square, balanced, free of magnetic influence, and all six faces are equal-sized and correctly spotted. The physical design of casino dice must meet standards in 11 CSR 45-5.260 Dice Specifications . After the dice are removed from the table, they are visually inspected by a different supervisor or manager than the one who supervised the pre-play inspection. The casino staff is required to promptly secure the questionable dice and notify the gaming commission agent on duty if any dice fail these inspections.

    Now if they follow through on this I don't know, but I have seen them verifying the dice.
     
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  14. Hardeight, May 18, 2011

    Hardeight

    Hardeight Member

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    LMAO take that to all you chuckleheads who called me a wackjob Dustedone,DeMango,Sancho Panza, Midnight Skulker,Goatcabin and the rest.You know who you are
     
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  15. Hardeight, May 18, 2011

    Hardeight

    Hardeight Member

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    Harley in your opinion which sides do you think are biased the most at casinos?Sounds like that O'Sheas was biased on the 2.But I guess you can determine as the game is being played.
     
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  16. basicstrategy777, May 18, 2011

    basicstrategy777

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    As the shooter, you can change the dice, anytime for any reason.

    777
     
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  17. Harley, May 18, 2011

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    LZNam -- great work !!! ^5

    I have only played in Missouri a couple of times so I am not that familiar with them but I do like the response back from the Missouri Gaming Commission -- they seem to be more pro-player like Colorado is. The Nevada Gaming Commission favors the casinos over the players and has ZERO such rules or regulations about how to and when to balance a dice.

    You are right to suspect if they balance the dice correctly - too many of the casino guys go thru the motions with no clue on how to use a balancing caliper. A buddy of ours that owns Craps, LLP (http://www.littlejoecraps.com/ ) witnessed a pit supervisor in an Indiana casino spin the dice in the caliper .... but he was in such a hurry to do all the dice that he would grab the dice from the caliper before it would come to a free stop. On a different day, a different pit supervisor was balancing the dice and he was letting them spin freely only to see them land on the same number each time, but he thought nothing of it cause he was just going thru the motions. And to top it off, he was being watched by the casino internal control guy that was making sure he was going thru the motions --- NEITHER ONE OF THEM did anything about the unbalanced dice they had just put on the caliper and they marked them ok for play.

    LZNam - you have mail.

    Hardeight - you are right ........ most casinos in Las Vegas make their dice unbalanced in 2 ways:

    1. Use a resin compound in the white pips that is heavier or lighter than the plastic cube, or
    2. Use the casino logo engraving to make the dice lighter or heavier on one side (usually the 1 or 2)

    About 90% of the unbalanced dice in Las Vegas are from utilizing method 1 above -- the heavier pips make the dice unbalanced. This makes the heavier weight towards the 5 and 6 "half" side of the dice. With an unbalanced dice, you are now basically playing with mostly a 4-sided dice instead of a 6-sided dice --- the result is the house edge increases no matter which side of the table you play on

    The mathematicians and pure theorists all tell you not to play the game of craps until you understand the house edge .... so the more you learn about how casinos increase the house edge with biased dice and are able to recognize it for yourself, the better your bankroll will be. If you want to read more about biased dice, you can also go to a free board called ProCraps4u2 ==> http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/forum29.php
     
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  18. basicstrategy777, May 18, 2011

    basicstrategy777

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    The dice are made of cellulose ; the spots are drilled approximately 17/1000 of an inch into the faces of the die.
    The spots are filled with paint the same weight as the celluloid that was drilled out. The 1 spot is drilled deeped than the 6 spot.
    The dice are balance.


    777
     
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  19. The Midnight Skulker, May 18, 2011

    The Midnight Skulker

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    Take what? First off I called you no names. What I did do was challenge you to provide some evidence to back up your claim that the Pennsylvania casinos were using magnets to increase their advantage. What I did do was challenge you to provide a mechanism by which non-metallic objects could be influenced by magnets. That the Missouri Gaming Commission requires dice to be checked for the possibility of being influenced by a magnet, and without specifying how that could be done, addresses neither of these challenges.

    At least you got my handle right this time.
     
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  20. Harley, May 18, 2011

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    777 -- Balanced dice are as easy as that - especially if you sand the spots flush after you fill the holes !! ........ and in bulk they cost about $4.15 per stick .... however, if you fill the drilled spots with a resin compound that does not weigh the same as the cellulose (plastic cube) AND if you do not sand the spots FLUSH when you finish (thus you have cut corners and made cheaper dice), you can sale a stick of dice for about $2.85 and make a nice little profit by beating out your competition in volume. (Las Vegas uses about 21,000 dice in a busy week)

    What a win-win for the corporate casino beancounters --- they can buy cheaper dice that increase the house edge --- especially in Nevada where there is no specific dice laws that the dice must be squarely flushed and balanced.

    Next time you put casino dice on a micrometer, move the needle of the micrometer across the white pips, then back to the colored part of the cube --- watch the needle jump !! .... cheap casino dice are not sanded flush after the drilled holes are filled

    .... and when was the last time you saw the 1 spot drilled deeper than the other sides --- very rare
     
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