California Craps

Discussion in 'General Craps Discussion' started by syko415, Feb 6, 2015.

  1. syko415, Feb 6, 2015

    syko415

    syko415 Member

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    In the golden state it is illegal to bet on the outcome of inanimate objects such as dice and balls. Don't ask me why or the rationale behind it, I don't know. So some casinos and card rooms have created card-based craps and roulette. I'd like to share with the craps community on some of the games I've seen or heard about and where to find them.

    101 Casino (card room) located on Hwy 101 in Petaluma (about 1 hour north of San Francisco) offers a new craps game called Party Craps. Introduced in Sept 2014. It's operated Thursday, Friday, and Saturday from 4pm to midnight, usually $5 minimum. Party craps uses a normal 52-card deck but only the Aces through 6s, discarding 7s-Kings. It does not incorporate dice at all. There are six decks in the shuffler (supposedly), so about 144 cards (6#s x 4suits x 6decks). The shuffler is set on infinite shuffle and the cards are thrown back in after every deal. A "roll" or deal consists of the dealer drawing two cards out, each card represents one die.

    Odds & Payouts:
    The game is very much like a normal craps game in terms of odds and payouts. House rules are typical of any other Vegas casino: pass line, come, field (double on 2, triple on 12), don't pass, don't come, 3-4-5x odds, horns 15-to-1 and 30-to-1, hard ways 7-to-1 and 9-to-1. They even have hopping bets. No fire bets though.

    Table Setup:
    The game is played on a miniature craps table, about half the size of a Vegas craps table. It fits 8 players or positions. There is a dealer (employee of 101 Casino) and a prop player or banker (employee of the "Corporation"). As a player, you are actually playing against the prop player who represents the "Corporation" (another workaround of Calif laws); you are also given an opportunity to bank a hand. The stick man is only an employee of the casino and a facilitator of the game. 101 Casino is paid by the Corporation and "rakes" in $1 for every hand a new bet is placed. Since there are no dice involved, the table has a string of LED rope lights lining the rails which are used to moderate the flow of the game. Lights on = dice out = no more bets allowed. Lights off = collect your winnings or place your bets.

    Action:
    Come out roll - player places a bet on the pass line on their corresponding numbered position. Two cards are dealt and action begins. 7/11 wins, 2/3/12 loses, any other number is the point. If a point is established, the dealer will move your pass line bet to the point #. Player can place odds by setting it down on the table. Dealer will place the odds bet next to your pass line bet. No money stays on the pass line.

    Nuances:
    (1) You must wait for the light to be off before picking up your winnings. This allows the dealer to pay out everyone properly and manage the game better.
    (2) Horn bets must be placed on your corresponding position # and cannot be placed in the "Horn Bet" square.
    (3) Most place bets will be returned to you when you win unless you call out "same bet" or "press".
    (4) Field bets must be made in $5 increments.
    (5) As a courtesy, you can request to burn one card but it requires the floor manager's approval.

    Cache Creek Casino (Indian casino) located in Brooks, CA is about 2.5 hours drive northeast from San Francisco or 1 hour west of Sacramento. They offer just about every Vegas game available. Their craps and roulette however are modified and patent pending. Since this is a craps forum, I'll stick to talking about the craps game and setup. Here they use custom-made dice and cards.

    Table & Game Setup:
    The table is a normal size Vegas craps table with one major difference. And like in Vegas, there are two dealers to take bets, a stickman to moderate action, and a pit boss to monitor the game. No prop players here because it's on Indian land(I guess?). There are two colored squares in front of the stick man - one red, one blue. These squares coordinate with the custom dice - one red, one blue. The red die only has 2s and 3s on the six sides and the blue die only has 1s and 4s. The custom cards have all the possible outcomes in craps printed on them; so the deck consists of 36 cards.

    Odds & Payouts:
    Unfortunately it's been awhile since I've visited Cache Creek. But most bets are the same as normal: 3-4-5x odds, pass/don't pass, come/don't come, field (double on 2, ??? on twelve), hardways, horns, hoppers, ??fire bet??. Every time I've gone it's been $5 minimum. But again it's been awhile (>3 years) since I've gone.

    Action:
    Before every roll, the stick man will draw two cards and place one in each colored square. Dice out to shooter. Roll. Whichever die shows the higher number will determine which card to flip open. The card will be the result of the roll. All rules of betting remain the same.
     
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  2. OCElite, Feb 6, 2015

    OCElite

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    Most of the Indian Casinos in southern california have actual craps tables but like u said, with cards. I've played dont really care for it.

    Viejas Casino in San Diego had a table which was set up kind of like a black jack table, think 4-6 players max. And u have ur own little space to place ur bets. Its different but I actually enjoyed it there probably because I walked away up about $600 after an hour or so.

    Why arent dice legal in california? Stupidest thing i've ever heard.
     
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  3. syko415, Feb 6, 2015

    syko415

    syko415 Member

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  4. OCElite, Feb 6, 2015

    OCElite

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    cool, share the info thx
     
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  5. syko415, Feb 6, 2015

    syko415

    syko415 Member

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    Here's all you would need/want to know about gambling in California
    http://www.oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/gambling/gambling_law_2014.pdf

    Why it's illegal: per California's constitution under penal code 330, it is illegal to gamble on the outcome of dice.

    Why was this law put in place: no one knows. Why is any ridiculous rights-limiting law in Calif ever legalized??? Combination of uninformed voters, money-throwing political activists, and sheer non-sense!

    Some theories I came across in my reading:
    (1) game of SKILL (cards) vs CHANCE (dice)
    (2) political motivations - i.e. other states (Nevada) wanting to protect their gaming dominance (aka "tourism trade") influenced California lawmakers to limit types of games
     
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  6. OCElite, Feb 7, 2015

    OCElite

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    Does anybody know if any if the cali casinos have bubble craps???
     
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  7. goatcabin, Feb 7, 2015

    goatcabin

    goatcabin Member

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    Every time I've been to Cache Creek (it's 18 miles from my house) they paid double only on 2 and 12, making it a 5%+ HA. Mostly it's $5 minimum, but I went out there on a Friday or Saturday night once and it was up to $10.

    It's a pretty silly setup, lots of extra equipment and delay, when all they need is a set of six cards and regular dice to point to them. Unfortunately, it's the only place I can go to, play a couple of hours, and come home.
     
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  8. syko415, Feb 9, 2015

    syko415

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    I haven't seen any in NorCal.
     
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  9. syko415, Feb 9, 2015

    syko415

    syko415 Member

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    Thanks Alan for the update! I hear Thunder Valley is also carrying the same style of CA craps as Cache Creek. Both are still quite a drive for me coming from SF. And you're right, lots of unnecessary extra equipment!!!!
     
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  10. goatcabin, Feb 11, 2015

    goatcabin

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  11. The Midnight Skulker, Feb 12, 2015

    The Midnight Skulker

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    Does not sound like the odds are the same to me. The "face of the second die" has only five chances to show instead of the six it would have with a full deck. Obviously this reduces the probability of "rolling" 2, 12, and the hardways.
     
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  12. Onautopilot, Feb 12, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    I agree.The only way it would be the same is to draw one card for the first die, then replace the card and draw the second die from a full deck. I think. :)
     
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  13. Onautopilot, Feb 12, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    Couldn't you play that to your advantage, maybe lay the ten and four. The way they draw the cards, wouldn't that reduce the odds of making the point?
     
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  14. goatcabin, Feb 12, 2015

    goatcabin

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    Yeah. I seem to remember from another casino that they had a "joker" card in there as well, which represented the first card drawn. Don't know whether "Party Craps" has that or not.
     
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  15. The Midnight Skulker, Feb 13, 2015

    The Midnight Skulker

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    Clearly it would reduce the odds of throwing an even number (e.g. 4, 10), but by how much I lack the interest to calculate. Gut feel: not by very much, and I would be amazed if it were by enough to overcome the vig.

    A simpler calculation is a soft hopper, for example 3-1.
    First card: 8 out of 24 chances of getting a 3 or a 1.
    Second card: 4 out of 23 chances of getting the necessary
    match.​
    (8/24) * (4/23) = .058 = probability of winning
    (vs. .056 with actual dice)​

    I have never played Card Craps, but as Alan noted, I have read about some variations that use a Joker that assumes the value of the other card regardless of whether it is drawn first or second.
     
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  16. goatcabin, Feb 13, 2015

    goatcabin

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    Another method uses two shoes of cards, will one card drawn from each, which obviates the need for a "joker". Both shoes are on constant shuffle, and the cards are replaced before the next draw.
     
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  17. Matthew Ford, Jul 6, 2015

    Matthew Ford

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    I spent a little time at Red Hawk Casino this weekend, and they still have the best California craps variant that I've come across: before each shooter, they deal six cards that are assigned to each number on a die(1-6). Then, the shooter rolls a regular pair of dice, and the dealer highlights what the true value of the roll was by pulling the two cards that were assigned to each die.

    I find it pretty close to true craps because of the way I roll: I tend to try and visualize the exact numbers I'm trying to hit. So let's say I'm trying to roll an 8, I can look over and see the four has been assigned to one on the die, so I can visualize snake eyes. If I hit, it's fun to cheer before people even know what's happened! But yeah, most of the time I end up having to wait for the dealer to get the true total.

    They had 2-3 $5 craps tables going, but it was a holiday weekend. They offered 3x-4x-5x odds on the pass line. 2x for 2 and 12 on the field. They also had the all tall/all small/all or nothing at all side bet.
     
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  18. The Midnight Skulker, Jul 7, 2015

    The Midnight Skulker

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    So the cards are dealt and assigned face up? This is significant for it allows some DI, albeit with a little extra work to translate the dice pips to card pips. Problem, of course, is that opposite dice faces do not always translate to a total of 7.
     
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  19. Onautopilot, Jul 7, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    Barona Indian casino outside San Diego, also plays card craps like that. I have seen some shooters that looked like wanna be DI's setting the dice and throwing like they were trying to influence the dice rolls. The crew didn't pay any attention to them. I get bored easy, so I didn't watch them long enough to form any opinions, other than the one I had before I started watching. :)
     
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