Can you see the difference?

Discussion in 'Other Casino Games' started by Craps Poopshoot, Dec 20, 2016.

  1. Craps Poopshoot, Dec 20, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    here is the help screen from two different video poker machines, though from the same manufacture (IGT)
    IMG_20161219_173826-1.jpg IMG_20161219_173754-1.jpg

    Anyone care to tell me the difference between the two video poker machines?
     
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  2. Twelve4s, Dec 20, 2016

    Twelve4s

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    Although both games use a 52 card deck, one games reshuffles the deck for each new hand. Kinda like an infinite shoe. That's my guess, don't play VP much.
     
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  3. Mssthis1, Dec 21, 2016

    Mssthis1

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    Top one is deuces wild single hand and the bottom one is Jacks or better multi play.
     
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  4. Craps Poopshoot, Dec 21, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    More photos of help screens to come...
     
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  5. Onautopilot, Dec 21, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    So far, I have never seen a VP machine that put the discards back in the in the shuffle for the draw. If I did, I would never play there again!

    I have talked to a few VP Techs about the RNG's and how they operate, I have gotten some shoulder shrugs, and very little real information about it from them. Maybe they are just trouble shooting "parts changers" for the most part.

    My understanding is that the RNG is in continuous "shuffle", and when you hit the deal button, the five cards are randomly selected and displayed in order of selection.

    The one quirk that I read about is when you "hold" the cards you want to keep, the RNG instantly puts the randomly selected draw cards behind the place where the discards would be.......thereby debunking the "Timing" method some VP players advocate.

    There are some VP machines that are programmed to display certain hands at random times, not a true RNG type machine....I think the state run machines in Oregon are programed that way. I would never play those machines, they are a "slot" machine, not a real VP machine..
     
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  6. Twelve4s, Dec 21, 2016

    Twelve4s

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    I will admit to knowing little about VP strategy and different VP machines.
    From a probability point of view, being dealt a hand from a full 52 card deck, don't you have a better chance at hitting a royal than you would from a depleted deck of 26 cards? Please enlighten me.
     
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  7. Onautopilot, Dec 21, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    There is always a full deck being shuffled before the draw of any new hand. It is just like a one handed poker game with a dealer. And when you discard a card or cards, they are "mucked" at that point, and the dealer just gives you the "draw" cards from the remaining deck. After the hand is over, the dealer reshuffles all the cards, and deals the next hand.......in the case of VP, the RNG is the "Dealer".

    The only thing that could be different than a live game, is if the machine is programed to put the "mucked" cards back in the remaining deck for the "draw".......I have personally never seen that type of machine, nor would I ever play one if I did see that.
     
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  8. betwthelines, Dec 21, 2016

    betwthelines

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    interesting little quiz there, poop.

    yes, more screens might be helpful...but maybe not necessarily.

    first you should know that my ignorance of vp, per se, is quite profound...my knowledge of a deck or cards and of the game of standard poker however is extensive.

    thus mssthis1 seems to be correct in that the top game is that of deuces wild, single hand and the bottom one plausibly j or b and definitely multi-hand.

    BUT SOMEHOW, POOP, I SENSE THAT IT IS NOT THESE MUNDANE DETAILS THAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR in your interesting little quiz here...somehow--cant put my finger on why--i do not think whether the game is j or b or double double triple double back flip bonus bonus poker is all that important to the answer that you are looking for...

    ...correct me if i am wrong...

    No. i think the fact that the top machine uses TWO DECKS per game and the bottom ONE DECK is more salient to the answer of your intriguing query...

    if i am correct in this, then it looks to also be true that BOTH decks are identical both before and after the deal and so as a practical and probability matter i fail to see any significance or difference.

    but that really doesn't make any sense...if there is no difference, then why have 2 decks? there must be more to it than is meeting my eye.

    it is the answer to this and its consequences that i am pretty sure you will edify us with eventually.

    i am all eyes.

    tom p
     
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  9. Twelve4s, Dec 21, 2016

    Twelve4s

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    The top game states it uses one 52 card deck. Where do you see two decks?
     
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  10. Twelve4s, Dec 21, 2016

    Twelve4s

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    Thanks OAP, my lightbulb has been lit. Doesn't shine too brightly at times. I can see why you should flee such a machine, thanks to your example of mucking.
     
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  11. Onautopilot, Dec 21, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    The difference being that with "two" decks, you could actually draw a card that you had discarded, making the odds favor the casino at a greater degree, but I have never seen that scenario. I don't believe any machine uses "two" decks though.....if they did, you could end up catching a draw card that was identical to the held card......two Kings of Spades, that would be so evident as to be ridiculous.

    If I have a one card draw to a royal flush, my odds are 47 to 1 of hitting it with a standard dealt deck. If the machine puts my "mucked" card back in the draw deck, I now have a 48 to 1 chance. Same with all other draw hands.

    But I have never seen a machine that put the mucked cards back in the deck. It would be evident to any astute player that it was the case.....throw a Queen of Hearts away, and get a Queen of Hearts back on the draw.

    I believe Poop maintains that happens on some machines, but I have never seen it, and doubt it is common place or even exists in Vegas type venues......but I have been wrong before. :) .
     
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  12. Onautopilot, Dec 21, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    Since this is on a craps forum, but still started as a VP tread, I feel I can expand a little on the VP thing.

    I believe I am pretty knowledgeable on the game. I personally consider myself an advantage VP player. I select only machines that have a pay schedule that puts it in the 99% + payout bracket with optimum play strategy. The two pay schedules that I watch are the full house and flush pays.....those are usually the only ones the casino adjusts to change the EV of the game.

    With a 99% pay schedule, and a 1 or 2% points return, plus comps, and promotions, I am usually playing at a 1 to 3 % advantage. BUT, VP is a vey, very volatile game.....big losses, big wins, and you have to have the bankroll and time to invest....a lot of time!

    But in reality, I do not play it strictly because I might have a slight advantage, not worth the effort for the expected return on investment and time.....I play it for enjoyment, and so far playing the advantage also, I have not paid much of a price for the entertainment.

    VP is a feast or famine type of play....not for he faint of heart if one wants to go the advantage play route....also your ass gets tired of sitting there, and if you don't refocus your eyes on other things, a fixation sets in that you wouldn't believe. :)

    Talk about volatility, on a $1 machine, you can play 10-12 hands a minute....that's $50 to $60 dollars a minute, or $3,000 plus an hour total bet handle. Play 3 hours and that is almost $10,000 per session.

    Play 2 to 3 times a week.......$20-$30,000 a week.

    Play for one year......$2-$3,000,000 in total bet handle.

    On a 99% pay back, or 1% negative EV.....$3,000,000 X 1% = $30,000 expected loss.

    So a 1% cash back points is expected to break you even, and any comps, and promotions dollars is added to that........then subtract any Tax ramifications!

    Just like craps.....VP is a tough game to beat, so if I didn't enjoy them so much, I wouldn't play them! :)
     
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  13. Twelve4s, Dec 21, 2016

    Twelve4s

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    Now I know why I don't play much VP. I play my reward points in a Dollar VP machine in the high limit room. Only JB machine I could find with 9/5 payout. So far about even or a tad ahead for the points I put through it. Never hit a royal yet. Four of a kind a few times. Any winner is good!
     
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  14. Twelve4s, Dec 21, 2016

    Twelve4s

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    The bottom game allows you to change the value of a credit. Can you go from .25 to 25.00 or from .25 to .01?
     
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  15. betwthelines, Dec 21, 2016

    betwthelines

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    my mistake. i guess i got a little mixed up going back and forth...however i stand by the "concept" that one machine uses two decks, the other one and further believe that fact will play into a large part of what poops delivers as his "answer"
    NEGATIVE
    the two deck machine EXPLICITLY states, "replacement cards are dealt from a separate 52 card deck for each hand, excluding the five initially dealt cards"

    so, as i stated in my post the two decks APPEAR TO BE IDENTICAL AT ALL TIMES, both before and after the deal...thus i questioned basically wtf is the point of two decks?...further i surmised that there should be a reason for the 2 decks but that reason is not at all apparent to me, thus i patiently await poop's take.
    uh-huh...although in fairness you were wrong this time for reasons that are a little understandble though not if you had comprehended my post...even so, your statement could be "literally" true under a different scenario, viz 2 independent, different decks...it is just that this time it is not correct (again...lol)

    i too have never <sic> seen such a thing as drawing an already discarded card on a vp machine.

    tom p
     
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  16. betwthelines, Dec 30, 2016

    betwthelines

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    is there a point to this thread, poops?...i been kinda curious about it.
    when, ya think?
    12s, i am curious about and not seeing where you are seeing this...i realize it is a "guess" on your part as to the difference between the machines but i do not see the factual basis for your guess...but i too am not particularly knowledgeable about vp but have always understood that all the machines--including these 2--reshuffle and start with a "new" deck --- or in the case of the multi-hand machines decks, plural --- once "game over" shows...

    in the case of multi-hand games, which one of these machines is, it is true that the deck status (the value and order of specifically the first 5 cards) are the same for all the hands, ie those 5 dealt from the first deck...those 5 cards are then removed from all of the decks.

    ======================================
    the oooops! never mind-BINGO!!-THE-LIGHT-BULB-JUST- WENT-OFF DEPARTMENT!
    ======================================

    never mind!
    in my haste to put 'pilot's shit out in the street over his scenario of drawing an already discarded card i did correctly point out that the "separate" deck did indeed exclude the "five initially dealt cards", but what i failed to notice in that very same sentence is that there is a separate 52 card deck "FOR EACH HAND"

    OF BLEEPING COURSE!!!
    how else could you get you get a random and more importantly independent draw for EACH hand?
    duh! dumb bleepin' bohunk!...not only was my assumption that there was "only one", separate 52 card deck totally wrong but there are separate decks for every hand you are playing! IOW if you are playing a 10 hand game, you would have the one original deck and nine "separate" decks Duh! (well presumably anyway it is the original one deck from which you touched your discards and onto which your original "first" hand would show + 9 but it could just as easily be 10 "separate" decks for the draw and it would make no difference since the original 5 cards have been removed from all decks)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------​
    so, poop, if it is this difference that you were thinking about or something related to it, then i suppose we are good to go...i guess my opinion is that such mundane differences as one machine is j or b, the other deuces wild or for that matter double-triple-backflip-bonus-bonus-quadruple-triple-bonus poker, one multi-hand, the other not, on one you can change the credit value, the other maybe not...if it it those type differences you were thinking of, then i guess others here have covered those bases too.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    further however you seem to think that vp machines are not slot machines while bubble crap's are...other than it is the greedy, cheating casinos why do you think so? wouldn't the greedy bastards be just as likely then to use slot-like logarithms on the vp machines? would that not in fact be easier to do than control of apparently randomly tumbling semi-cube (rounded) bubble dice?

    i am 99.998% certain that vp machines are in fact not slot machines, in fact do use RNGs and in agreement with you about that...in fact i believe it would be illegal--certainly cheating--were it to be otherwise at least on those vast majority that state a "standard 52 card deck" is used [a statement that could easily be removed from the machines however])...

    but i am 99.9999% certain that the tumbling bubble dice are, just as with table dice, the RNGs. no logs control the outcomes...the bubble is not a slot...logarithms would certainly be cheating by anyone's understanding of the term but it might also even be illegal for while there is no such explicit statement as on the vp machines there is the IMPLICIT display that it is the random tumbling of the dice that is determining the outcome...seems to me a court might easily rule so and with little controversy about it even.

    now from a knowledgeable tech i happen to know for a fact that there are "chips" inside those rounded dice but they are used to identify the outcomes and not to determine them...the method is the reason "cocked" dice cannot be read properly on the bubble & things need to be percolated again (or less frequently nowadays as bubble play matures & bugs are worked out a tech called to get things going again)

    i realize that nothing i have said here is really all that convincing to anyone whose mind is trapped in conspiracy but hanging your hat on greed as the basis of your calcified belief is a thin reed.

    greed is a given.

    tom p
     
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  17. Twelve4s, Dec 30, 2016

    Twelve4s

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    Me too?

    I guess we took the bait.
     
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  18. Craps Poopshoot, Dec 30, 2016

    Craps Poopshoot

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    IMG_20161221_153158-1.jpg
    IMG_20161221_153307.jpg
    IMG_20161222_130048.jpg

    When I asked the Slot Manager about the differences in the Help Screens, he said "If a feature your are looking for is not specifically stated in the help screens, then it is not in the game"

    The top photo is of a single line Video Poker game, the bottom photos of Help Files two are multi-line games.

    As for "Shoot to win", there is some really interesting discussions about the effects of rounded corners of six sided dice from the war and fantasy gamer community. They simply say that the more round the corners are allow the biases of the dice to take effect, and the more round the corners are you get a much more flattening of the Two-Dice Pyramid.

    To my own observations, you see far more 2,3, 11,12 with the bubble Craps dice than you see with table dice.

    I talked to a Pit Boss about the differences of the dice, and he said that the table dice are TRUE ROLLS because of the sharp edges, where as the Bubble Craps dice have rounded corners that they roll around much more and is more random. He said you will see far more Craps rolls with those dice than table dice. I agree.

    We know that the Shoot to Win dice have RFID chips in each face. A tech told me that, and that is how the machine knows what the rolls result is. We don't know what other technology is in those dice or under the plate that the dice are on.

    [​IMG]

    But.. Don't believe me.
    Go buy some rounded corner dice at a game shop and roll them yourself. Then get some Casino dice and roll them. Record the results from both types of dice and compare them. You then will understand what I am talking about.

    The game of Craps is built on TRUE ROLLS and the mathematical odds of dice rolls.

    [​IMG]

    Bubble Craps 'shoot to win' dice flatten the expected results
    SquashedCrapsResults.png

    You get a Craps Hump, and not the Craps pyramid!
    So, what does this mean? It means a lot of things. The flattening of the expected Craps Pyramid simply increases house edge significantly. However, most people can look at the above images and understand for themselves what the effect will be with rounded corner dice vs sharp corner dice.

    Now the layout for the 'shoot to win' is exactly like the table, and as how the game is played and the payouts is also the same as the table ... however the rolls are not the same as the table!
    IMG_20161108_084220-1.jpg

    There is a regular group of players here in Las Vegas who play 'Shoot to win' everyday. Some of them camp out at the 'shoot to win' terminals for 8 to 12 hours a day. They will tell you that the rolls are not like the table game rolls, and betting methods that work well on the tables do not work on the machine version! Most of them play the Iron Cross method of betting and a bet on the C&E for a few rolls then reduce the bets to the six/eight. Don'ts players tend fair poorly with 'shoot to win' with the higher than normal 11's, 4's and 10's that makes don'ts play costly.

    My argument that the game 'shoot to win' is a SLOT is valid because the 'Shoot to win' rolls are not the same as the table game rolls due to the effects of the rounded corner dice.
    • A slots is pure random, True Craps dice roll with in expected odds. Shoot to win with the rounded corner dice produces a far more RANDOM dice rolls than table dice
    • A slot is more volatile. True Craps rolls produce a low volatility, however 'Shoot to win' with the rounded corner dice produce a far more volatile game. I have seen epic rolls as well as epic sevens rolling to (see the above image)
    • Players cannot inspect the dice or roll them by hand. Players push a button that pops a plate that the dice sit on that send the dice high in the air and falling back to the plate. Pushing a button is also exactly what a slot player does.
    • We have no idea of what technology is inside the dice or under the plate that the dice sit on. Traditional craps dice are often clear and players can look under the table to ensure no magnets are there. With 'shoot to win' the dice are not transparent so we cannot see what is inside the dice, and we cannot see what is under the plate the dice sit on.
    I also have pointed out that the SLOT department manages the 'Shoot to win' and the points are slot points, and many here have criticized this statement of mine saying it means nothing. However, the new Dynasty Baccarat machines is managed by the Table game department and the points are Table Game points.
    IMG_20161203_212903-s.jpg
    I have asked many Casino slot and table game managers why 'shoot to win' is considered a slot, where as 'Dynasty Baccarat' is considered a table game. This has caused all of them to 'vapor lock' where they have no answer and are speechless, so they run to a host. The host tell me that they have no idea why. The company that makes Dynasty Baccarat says that they are a Table game because of the live dealers and that the game is identical to the traditional tables, and point out that the rounded corners of the 'shoot to win' dice produce a far more random roll and higher volatility than the actual table game, and thus is not considered a table game but a slot.
     
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  19. KokomoJoe4, Dec 30, 2016

    KokomoJoe4

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    Ah, but do the rounded corners dice have opposite faces which add up to 8 2/3? If not, there might be something wrong with them, and the "experts" might suggest you not play with them in the casino.

    Were these dice purchased form Heavy, or are they "rejects" from the batch being sent to the Casino Royale?
     
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  20. Bases loaded, Dec 30, 2016

    Bases loaded

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    The Organic version of bubble craps seen in the NY racinos display a chart of the last 100 roll outcomes on the machine. The data is pretty close to what the probabilities would predict.

    It does not show any 'flattening' of the dice pyramid.
     
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