Casino gives The Shooter 5 DICE...Are they Loaded or are they Legit.?

Discussion in 'General Craps Discussion' started by obie1, Nov 3, 2013.

  1. Grizzoola, Jan 15, 2014

    Grizzoola

    Grizzoola Member

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    I provided a poll w/ my thread on the Wizard's forum. It's at the top of the thread. It, and all the comments following by experienced craps players, indicates that this thread on Craps Forum is bogus, immaterial, and irrelevant, and should be ignored. Maybe those guys are fools. I doubt it greatly.
     
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  2. Sancho Panza, Jan 15, 2014

    Sancho Panza

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    If it was that much "harder to make balanced" dice, the State of New Jersey would have never been able to write the size, balance and composition of dice into law.
     
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  3. Harley, Jan 15, 2014

    Harley

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    Grizzoola - I have met in person over half of the experienced craps players on the Wizards board ... I play more in 1 week than they play combined in 1 year .... they are like professors = theorists with no concept of reality .... give them a math problem and they are great

    your similar Poll was done on DiceSetter.com 4 years ago before education began about the subject of biased dice:

    Link here ---> http://tinyurl.com/nxcqfn9
     
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  4. Harley, Jan 15, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    Reminder ...
    And per request from Heavy's students that have RSVP - yes I have agreed to keep their IDs anonymous
     
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  5. rudeboy99, Jan 15, 2014

    rudeboy99

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    Having read some IDIOTIC posts and threads throughout this forum, , I can state, without hesitation, that this thread may be the most pathetic yet. If you THINK for ONE SECOND that your local casino is using dice biased to roll more "7"'s than the statistical average, simply 'buy behind" the four or ten and take your fortune to the bank, daily. :coolgrin:
     
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  6. Harley, Jan 15, 2014

    Harley

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    LoL ... if you think you can beat certain biased Dice by Laying the 4 and 10 you have no idea what you are doing ... go ahead try it
     
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  7. Harley, Jan 15, 2014

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    One of the best posts I have seen on the internet - from the Wizards Board:

    RaleighCraps
    Member since: Feb 20, 2010
    Threads: 59
    Posts: 1605

    "Why does a casino put 5 dice on the craps table, mix them all up, and then make the shooter grab only 2?

    Many shooters ask for the same die when it goes off the table, so speeding up the game is negligible. In fact, I would argue that making every shooter pick 2 of the 5 dice is actually slower, since some people take a long time to decide.
    In addition, have you ever tried to get the same 2 dice that the previous shooter was throwing? They won't let you. In fact, they will usually mix them even more, and I have had boxmen put their hands over the whole pile of dice while they mixed them. Why?

    My opinion is the casinos do fear that a pair of dice may have a bias to them, albeit unintentional. By forcing you to pick 2 of 5 dice, the casino is ensuring randomness, even if the dice are not completely unbiased.

    If every dice was unbalanced in the same way, it would become obvious to the players, and could be exploited with the correct betting play.
    However, what if each die in the 5 dice set was unbalanced to different numbers? It would be impossible, as a player, to take advantage of this type of unbalance. Every 2 dice combination would have a skew towards a different number, and by the time you figured it out, a 7 out would have occurred and a 'new' pair of dice have been selected for the next roll.

    The question I have for the math experts (most of whom are probably not looking at this thread) follows;

    This is purely a mental exercise. I don't want to discuss why a casino would even entertain cheating. I just want to understand, from a mathematical perspective, would it be possible to gain an edge.

    Are there any combinations of dice weighting that would end up in the casino's favor. For instance, assume the shooter grabbed two dice that both had an unbalance in favor of the 6. The DP players push on the Come Outs, the PL players lose, so overall the casino is favored. Of course, if that was the known case, the player would just play the 12, which would hurt the casino, even with the high HE of that bet.

    However, the player would have to be able to recognize that the 6s were showing up more than reasonable, and start betting the 12, BEFORE the 7 out initiates a new dice combination. Until that recognition occurred, wouldn't the casino have a slight advantage with that particular dice combination?

    Given we have 5 dice to choose from (A,B,C,D,E) how many different pair combinations are possible? I think I am correct with 10.
    AB, AC, AD, AE, BC, BD, BE, CD, CE, DE

    Assume the "A" is biased toward the 6, and the "B" is biased toward the 1.

    When a shooter grabbed this combination, there is going to be a higher number of 7s thrown. The PL players will win more Come Out rolls, but are probably not going to win the point. The DP players are going to lose on the Come Outs, but are likely to win their Don't Point. However, I would think this combination of dice would still be in the casino favor, since there are generally way more PL players than DP players, and the PL odds bets will all lose. Again, once the players become aware of this bias, they would all switch to the DP, but given a new combination of dice is put in play after the 7 out, there would not be a chance to capitalize from this bias.

    So, is there a bias that could be applied to each die in a 5 dice set, in a way that would benefit the casino?"
     
    #127

  8. obie1

    obie1 Member

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    I must confess: I would not have been able to win as many Casino Crap sessions as stated, in thread: "Diceprofits.com" (opening post and post #316), had I not kept track of: what numbers were showing up on each "die" during each throw of the dice especially when THE "7" APPEARED!!!

    In the above reference thread and 2 post, I mentioned: keeping track of "12 to 48 indicators" ... two of those indicators is as stated in paragraph 1 above.

    Obie1
     
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  9. rudeboy99, Jan 16, 2014

    rudeboy99

    rudeboy99 Member

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    No Harley, I really don't think laying behind the 4 and 10 is really such a great idea...But I also don't think that these casinos are knowingly using biased or somehow altered sets of dice, either. I guess that this would be a great time for all those members who make the effort to keep a running record of the rolls to weigh in with any input. :red:
     
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  10. AdvantageCrapsPlayer, Jan 17, 2014

    AdvantageCrapsPlayer

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    Holy Cow, relax. Just exploit it like I do. Last week I was playing at a Strip casino. I noticed that the Ugly 7 ( mainly 5-2/6-1) were appearing after every 6 rolled. After it happened twice, I decided to lay the point and lay against the furthest # out. In this case with me it was the 8 that was lost. Wow, guts to Lay against the 6 sister number. I was making a $10 5-2 and a $10 6-1. BAM. "give me $150 and down please" is what I said on more than 2 occasions. Did I miss. Sure (-$20). Did the point or 8 hit on next roll? I think the 6 was a point at one point and I fired that lay point and lay 8 and 6 came right back once. But those are triggers to back off with caution now.

    So moral of the story is, if casinos are using dice that favor 5-2/6-1 then exploit it. If you don't know the Triggers than you might be "guessing", and if you are guessing, you are playing into "house edge" and not making an ADVANTAGE PLAY,

    ACP
     
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  11. Harley, Jan 21, 2014

    Harley

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    $nakeEye$ ... glad to hear you made it to Las Vegas after all according to some of your fellow classmates in your on-axis class with Heavy, but sorry you missed the Biased Dice presentation and demonstration you requested. We had a good showing for those that wanted to see 1st hand as well as touch, toss and test the unbalanced casino dice. We even had 1 participant bring some dice from an Atlantic City Casino that proved to be unbalanced ..... And we proved that Heavy's Axis Power Craps dice are unbalanced.

     
    #131
  12. The Midnight Skulker, Jan 21, 2014

    The Midnight Skulker

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    How much and in what way?
     
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  13. Sancho Panza, Jan 21, 2014

    Sancho Panza

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    Details like that don't matter. The claim was "proved."
     
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  14. Southern-Comfort, Jan 21, 2014

    Southern-Comfort

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    It depends. Is it enough to actually matter? If you measure for perfect balance, then yes, any dice you test will be unbalanced. Are they "anbalanced" or are they unbalanced enough to cause a realistic difference? Did anybody film it or make any notes?
    Seriously, I'm interested. I would hate to find out that all casino dfice are maliciously unbalanced and have to stop playing craps. Which brings the question... why do all those who insist the casinos are cheating, still gamble in casinos?
    And yes Sancjo, I noticed the quotes :).. just had to add my own thoughts.
     
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  15. obie1

    obie1 Member

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    Southern-Comfort:

    Good feedback...

    Thanks for your input... and to all Forum members who took the time to respond and share their opinion on this matter.

    I personally believe that no casino would intentionally put "bias Dice" on the table.

    However, I still believe that Casinos could : alleviate the fear that some players have that the dice may be bias by putting in "5 different color Dice" in the game or by just using 2 Dice in Casino play...

    Either way: It is ... what it is... ,

    So: let the Dice Roll...

    Good Luck,

    Obie1
     
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  16. obie1

    obie1 Member

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    Well, well., well... :

    Placed a trip report on "Heavy's" site, on Monday, 7/14/2014 titled;

    "Trip Report: Horseshoe Cleveland OH..."

    It just moseyed along on Monday and Tuesday with maybe 8 replies.

    Somehow by Wednesday evening it had "morphed" into a major slug-fest about:

    "Casino gives the shooter 5 Dice are they loaded or Legit...?"...


    ...with over 40 posts !!!

    It was CONTENTIOUS, to say the least... there were name calling and ridged posturing..., With all the heavy weights weighing in, with multiple post by:

    MP, Heavy, Cincy, sweet rolls, Gargoil, Maddog... they even brought "Harley" and "Superrick" into the slug fest... .(as reference characters, since neither of them made any posts).... . Great contributions by $nakeEye$ and others as well.

    By 11pm ....(when I checked to see if I had to make any replies...on my trip report ???) ... Heavy had already closed down the thread.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    One of the strongest arguments made seemed to be along the lines of:

    "...If someone believes that the dice are "bias" because certain numbers are appearing more often than "the norm"..., Then any Savvy player would take advantage of that and "load-up" on those numbers..."

    --------------------------------------------------------

    Hence: the conclusion of "the discussion" was;

    It is not in the best interest of The Casino to have unbalanced dice in play..., because "savvy" players would pick up on it and the Casino would lose money if such a situation was to occur.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    Someone did mention this post and "the 5 different color dice..." recommendation.

    My suggestion:

    Play what the table is offering ..., no more, no less... .

    Obie1
     
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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2014
    Raider likes this.
  17. superrick, Jul 17, 2014

    superrick

    superrick Member

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    Well Obie 1, isn't it funny how a thread can take on a life of it's own. The whole thing about bad or cheap dice came out, because of Harley and what he was seeing in the casino here in Vegas. Once he posted about what he was seeing the name calling started and has not stopped. There are members of the craps playing community, that feel that in the best interest, to deny that there is any such thing happening in the casinos. The reason for this is very simple they don't really know what to do about it, and are afraid that if it ever came to light, they wouldn't be able to sell their schools!

    Now I don't have the full story and I'm only getting bits a pieces of what was posted, but here's what I got out of it. You made a post explaining what you saw, the funny thing was I have to give you credit at how you reacted. You immediately made the right decisions, unlike what you would normally see in any casino.

    Now again I'm giving you credit, because you didn't even have to track the table to know what was going to happen, from what I was told. They tell me the thread went something like this, you made one of your famous trip reports where you won every one of you sessions, and again you left out a lot of information, so the great Heavy asked for more information and when he got it he didn't like what you said about what you observed when they put the dice on a balancer, you said all the dice came up 6/1.

    So you knew what to bet on right away, again you didn't even have to track the table, what I found quite funny was that is where the name calling started, I never would have thought that would happen, yea right!

    So all the so-called experts came climbing out of the woodwork, saying that no casino would ever use bad dice, and if they did they would make a killing at it. Here's the catch 21 to that, these so-called experts wouldn't know what to do when they were seeing bad dice! They don't have a clue, and their only response is to start the name calling!

    One guy jumps in and call what you saw BS and says that you couldn't tell what was going to happen by just looking at what the dice were doing on the balancer, gee I only wish that these guys got out into the casinos more often and didn't play craps on their computers!

    Then they jump on you about the heat you got, after all they never get heat, could it be that they don't represent a threat to the casino? My good buddy the great fiction writer the Madprofessor, is always writing anything he can about my play saying that I'm a pain in the ass, that in the dealer's hard-time and anything else he can throw out there to discredit me and Harley. Then he makes the statement that is why I get heat, he never even met me he doesn't know how I shoot, nor the casinos I even play in.

    I've met some of these guy that have been calling me every name in the book that never met me, the funny thing is when they ran into me they couldn't say enough good things about my shooting, not wanting to embarrass them I've never made their name public.

    Okay getting back on track, so you posted the rolls and more name calling my good buddy the Madprofessor made a post that had nothing to do with what you wrote, but it was made to make fun of you!

    So some guy come on and say that he sees the same kind of thing happen in the casinos he plays in and the shit hits the fan. He's called a damn liar! He doesn't know what he is talking about, no casinos would ever cheat!

    The great fiction writer crawls out of the woodwork again, again attacking the guy that said he sees the same thing! Praise the Lord, lets all bow down to the great Madprofessor, the greatest craps fiction writer there is! He's telling the world that he would just kill them if that was true. Now I'm almost crying because I'm laughing so hard.

    There is more name calling, and then along comes someone called Sweet Roll, more name calling because she defended the guy that was saying they were using bad dice where you were playing.

    More name calling, followed by more name calling, followed by more name calling then some how my name get thrown into mix, and then MP insinuate that Harley sent the MP roll data, now I'm really crying. Just like everything the great fiction writer,.. writes it so vague, you can't pin a name to who he is writing about!

    I can go on and on with this stupid post about all of the name calling, and how they tried to throw Harley an me into there stupid thread. The reason I'm calling it stupid, is very simple, MP and the rest of them are doing a great injustice to the craps players they make their money off of, they are afraid that their golden egg, will go away if their followers thought there were bad dice.

    Unlike all these so-called experts, you recognize something and bet it the right way, congratulations!

    Gee and you didn't even have to track the table to do so!

    The moral of the story is, please bury your head in the sand we need losers, keep paying those hookup fees, and yes lets not forget to keep taking those refresher courses. Heavy loves you, and I'm sure that you make the great MP's day,.. every time you read one of his great fictional stories.

    Okay Obie 1,.. Let's see I gave you credit two or three times in this post. At least you have the brains to bet on what you are seeing, therefore making money. More then I can say for the guys that were calling everybody names.

    Funny when people start calling names, it sometimes bites them in the ass! Yes I know, that Heavy did what he does best, and he shut down the thread.

    I still can't see why they wanted to throw my name in the mix. Maybe it's because I tell it like it is. Yes, I will still ask questions about what you claim to do, but I did put one feather in your cap!
     
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  18. obie1

    obie1 Member

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    Thanks Superrick::

    Quote:
    ... Okay Obie 1,.. Let's see I gave you credit two or three times in this post. At least you have the brains to bet on what you are seeing, therefore making money. More then I can say for the guys that were calling everybody names. Funny when people start calling names, it sometimes bites them in the ass! Yes I know, that Heavy did what he does best, and he shut down the thread.

    I still can't see why they wanted to throw my name in the mix. Maybe it's because I tell it like it is. Yes, I will still ask questions about what you claim to do, but I did put one feather in your cap! ( End Quote by SR)

    This is a very contentious topic and there are good arguments presented from both sides of the issue;

    From ... You, Harley, Sweet Buns and Cincy (....and others) ...

    and from...

    Heavy, MP, Maddog and Gargoil (... and others)...

    I respect the presentations from both sides and the participants as well, all are well informed vintage (savvy) craps players.

    Obie1
     
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  19. obie1

    obie1 Member

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    Talk about loaded dice:

    Today; 10 "7 outs" in a row under "3 rolls"...,

    Got clipped for $360.00 across on the "Do" ... after the "Captains 5 count"...,

    after which; switched to the "don'ts"

    Needless to say...; did well on the "don'ts" and came out way ahead... .

    My advice: don't get glued to either side of the bet; "Do" or "Don't"..., ...play and bet what the table is giving you...,

    Obie1
     
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  20. superrick, Aug 12, 2014

    superrick

    superrick Member

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    Very good advice Obie1, but you can also run into problems when you're playing the don't, and the 7's are killing you on the come out rolls!

    Any advice how to get around that? I would like to hear what you have to say! To many players think that when they are seeing a lot of 7's they will become millionaires by just playing the don't!

    They go down in flames, just like the do players because they can't figure out a way around the come-out rolls!
    Unfortunately there are a lot of times anymore where you will seeing nothing but sevens all coming the same way!
     
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