This should stir up the troops a bit. Did you know that Dice actually have a Hierarchy? Did you know that in this Hierarchy numbers have the lowest rank? This being the case, why do craps players place numbers at the highest rank? Did you know that "The Table of 36" is more inclined to show you how a number is displayed, not how many ways it can occur? Do you know how many Permutations are in this table? Do you know how many Permutations there are total? Do you know if a table exists to show them by distribution weight? Did you know there are two indexed components of Probability? Did you know the so called " BASIC SETS" are only a single axle variable of the possible Total Arrays? Do you know how many Axle Variables there are? Did you know reliance of top numbers only at outcome is misleading? Did you know Hardways, number pairs and 7's carry a higher risk than all other numbers? These comments are all part of Dice Properties. In my neck of the woods most players don't have a clue about the true and all encompassing meaning of a dice outcome. My guess is it holds true anywhere. Linaway

Aye, Linaway, a prevaricator at heart. I think, I get most of what you say, but leaves a bit to be desired; like an explanation? Define your terms so that we may know the true greatness of your wisdom, professor. Otherwise, the probability of distributed Numbered Pairs will be applied to your Risk, 7 times over in a Hardway; causing great Permutations! And yes, the troops amassing at your door are indeed here for the backyard BBQ; and you're on the menu! With all due respect, Sir.

Comeback Kid, None of this deviates from the truth. Explanation you want, that is why these samplings are here. To see what the board members know about dice. Now lets see what happens. To begin, if you understand most, what is it you understand? This needs explanation. Perhaps pick an item at a time and define what you think it means. If you know dice properties, this should be a breeze. If you don't, maybe homework is needed. Burning me at the stake won't get you any answers O' Wordy one. I'm old and not very tender. To date, the mass at the door equates to only 1. Reread my first comment about stirring things up a bit. Strategies has nothing to do with this. The theme is dice. I will give you a hint. Probability=Ordered Combinations and Permutations. All number pairs can occur in how many different axial arrays including the 7's. To complete the explanation, what are these arrays, how many are there, where do they reside? Linaway

I do not wish for a battle of wits, "Oh Learned One", however I will amuse you with this. Behold the 36 commandments. Am I getting warm?

A partial start but only half of what you need. This is not a battle of wits. Its what all should know about dice. I know this for the dice told me so. Reference my post item.... Did you know that "The Table of 36" is more inclined to show you how a number is displayed, not how many ways it can occur? We probably shouldn't deal with Standard Deviations and zero permutations. We should deal with "ordered combinations" which in itself is a permutation. The information you must seek contains 576 of the sought after rascals. Any preset on purpose or by default is a permutation. The top number and any other 2 faces is an "ordered combination". Showing the Table of 36 is not all that helpful. Reason being is that all that most see is the top number. That is not a dice set per se but a way a number can be arranged if in a specific 4 faced permutation. Example: Infamous 3V. The "ordered preset" is 3653, dice setting side by side. Left die 3 up and 6 looking at you. Axle it rotates about is 25. Right die is 5 up and 3 looking at you. Axle is 16. PSST! A way to see what you've got, away to know what you've got, away to read the dice and know where it resides, away to know how many number variables it can produce as permutations outside of the "ordered combination". Left die.....36 is synonymous to 2V. Right die 53 is synonymous to X6 Missing axis must be 3V. So lets look. Sure is and it is 2516. You can also read the dice across the faces looking at you as well as on top and get the same outcome results. X6 and 2V so the missing axis is 3V. This way is not as easy as the first shown. Another way is to know "Whar's the 7's. In the tossing plane you have 34 and 34 present. In the axles you have 16 and 25. Obviously your in the 3V. It's all about knowing dice properties. To help with other items in the thread, you can look at the axle variables. 2516, 2561,5216,5261. With 16 number variables in the tossing plane and 4 possible axle variables, then 4*16=64 permutations total for this array. This is but the basics. There are other things to consider which I won't divulge. By now you should realize there is a lot more to dice than just the top numbers. I can't hardly wait until someone shows me a breakdown of how many 5,6,8,9's etc there is from The Table of 36. These exampls are just to give you an idea of what this fishing expedition is about. Hope you find this helpful. Linaway

OOPS, I didn't see the probability column on your Table of 36. My mistake saying this.... I can't hardly wait until someone shows me a breakdown of how many 5,6,8,9's etc there is from The Table of 36.

Okay, about the ways to make numbers by the table indicating Probability is misleading. Why, you cannot show all Basic Arrays from this table. It's short half the permutations. An example might be in the Horizontal 6 array, straight 6's to some, has no 5 or 9's. The table calls for 4 ways in 36 rolls. You could have a 1000 rolls and if you remained on axis, you still would not see 4 each 5's or 9's. You would see none. If you are a random shooter, the liklihood of your having a 36 roll hand is slim. No way to know if you met probability for number distribution. Then there is your personal skew of probability, again the number distributions are going to be questionable. Linaway

Listen "Dice Whisperer" I demand to know the purpose of this exercise. I'm a simple man and I fail to see the relevance of another full set of table permutations. It's all academic as far as I'm concerned, and my head hurts. What counts in the game on the table is what I'm going with; the top face values, period. The chart for all intents and purposes is more than sufficient for demonstrating probabilities. Unless I'm missing suptin? To what end, Sir, to what end...

You demand, that kind of mentality will never get you a cookie. I thought for sure when you came on board with me I had a knowledgeable individual that was worth spending some time with. Apparently you are content with the casinos having their way with your money thinking that all that matters is top numbers only. Apparently they have you well trained to their bidding. Beware the ringing bells. As for your belief in the Table of 36, thinking the material is to dry and boring, I'll leave you with this link so that you can see how futile your beliefs are when it comes to probability. Run a few strings of 36 numbers and see how your Table of 36 goes south! There is a better way. Enjoy the link impatient one. My comeback to your comeback. http://nces.ed.gov/nceskids/chances/ linaway

Nice little link you've got there. Very interesting. I guess I'm just not a math guy. It just doesn't get my jollies. Not wired for it. You are, and have earned the respect of the forum. Kudos to you. The intuitive nature of the game rings my bells. I can hear them now... Perhaps a brave soul or 3 might chime in while I'm gone. (Knowledgeable individuals more deserving of your time and attention.) Being a simpleton, at this juncture, I don't see the practical benefit. I'll be at the tables the next few days creating my own probabilities. Will let you know who's having their way with who's money. It's been a banner year so far. Roll well my friend

Oh those wise words, I guess that's why we have so many paper hangers losing at the craps tables. I often wonder why it is that everybody that are betting the best bets on the table are losing, and you have the stupid players that don't know anything about the game winning by making the worst bets on the table. Nothing is ever written in stone, there isn't a year and it goes by that someone proves wrong what everybody thought was right. http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...89bfba-9f3c-11e3-9ba6-800d1192d08b_story.html And here we though that we were all alone! I guess it was academic that everybody said that the world was flat, what happened to that theory? It was also academic that Scarne got it wrong when he came up with the house advantage on the don't, it must have been 30 years before he was proving wrong on that one! Almost everybody takes things for granted, could it be that were all just lazy and we don't question what someone has said or written? Fortunately what is academic to some leaves a lot to be desired by a few individuals that have a quest for knowledge.

Thanks for your perspective Super(rick) Man. I do enjoy your unique voice on the forum. I believe, Scarne had a focused approach and kept it pithy. Sometimes we over-think and complicate, what is a fairly simple game. My work is to create the vibrational environment for my probabilities to occur; the way I prefer. My banner year continues, and I'm lovin' life! I hope the same for you

DICE PROPERTIES! IMO going to a craps table with no knowledge of the most devistating or lucrative part of the game is not wise. This will be about the dice. My mantra is "IT ALL BEGINS AND ENDS WITH THE DICE. WHAR'S THE 7'S? Two die faces standing alone tells very little about an outcome or for that matter a preset. You must see 4 die faces to interpret what an outcome is. Even for a simple man as you claim you are, you don't need a whole lot of mentatlity change to get around the hangup about the top dice numbers only. There is a world of information at your disposal each time the dice come to rest. Dice Whisperer, Okay, that is still yet another handle placed on me. Thank You! I take that as a compliment. There are others on this board that also qualify for this handle. I encourage you to learn all you can about dice properties. They are the literal core of a craps game. You don't have to be a great shooter to have dice smarts. Yes your correct when you say you will go to the tables and create your own probabilities. But know this, what you maintain is a skew of what you see on paper. The link gave you results of how fickle probability is. No need for math, just plug in how many rolls and the program does it for you. So what is your probability skew ratio" Linaway[/quote]

Good points all "Dice Whisperer" (You've earned the handle, the governing board has decided. Your old name, while perhaps appropriate, suggests lack consciousness) So what's my probability skew ratio? It depends. It depends on where my energy's at? You're asking for a snapshot in time of an ever evolving process of becoming. No offence but your link is a novelty; a computer generated formula based on an enormous amount of static data. Interesting, but irrelevant to me in in my universe - IMO. I'm no computer, and I ain't static. I used to be a victim of the fickle whim of probability, and to be honest, it still kicks me in the butt from time to time. But in the end, I'm getting what I'm giving out; so I make peace with it. Now there are only 2 outcomes in the probability game for me. That which I desire, and the lack of it. Dice properties? Where's the 7's - really? If that works for you my advice, (if you were asking); keep doing it. I detect a strong belief, so it must be serving you well. There are many pathways up the craps mountain. Perhaps that's why you excel at bubble craps. Listen, if I'm hitting my numbers, I'm on my game. If I'm not, I've got some stuff going on within me, of which I can do something about. I've figured out that I can't control conditions externally, but can have influence from the inside. So, I've been fine tuning this process for years now, and will continue to do so, as it has served me well. With all due respect... With me, it all begins and ends; based on what I've got going on in my vibration. If that resonates with you fine, if not, like Fleetwood Mac says; You go your way and I'll go mine. And I'll see ya at the top, oh Dice Whisperer! See, it's so simple...

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If the members are not challenged, you don't know which way they lean. Linaway

I agree with this even though there is much more one can know about a specific dice set. What is important is what you start with. The rest is a "Random" number of events the are equal to those you're mentioning in your "Chart" of outcomes. In other words, "You know too much".

Actually Rick's link proves two very important things. First, set it for ten rolls and you will almost never get a balanced chart. The more you set it for, the more the values fall into place. Short run (gamblers side) vs long run (casino's side). Gamblers get ANYTHING, and can count on nothing. Casino knows what will happen.\ Secondly, the government is spending my tax money on useless crap (pun intended) like this. I mean it proves a point but how does it benefit the population? Now, a little thing I have to offer to help one decide if they can influene the long run... Forget the numbers, and just get two casino dice of different colors and set the hardway set. Toss them 100 times as you do when trying to make a point (forget the set you use, the hardway set is merely so you can tell how each die ended). Answer the following: How many of the rolls were on axis? How many of the rolls were double pitches? How many of the rolls did one die end off axis? How many of the rolls did both die end off axis? Repeat again tommorrow and each following day until you have ten sets of data on different days. If you can beat all of the following normal avereages on at least 8 sets of data, you may be a DI. Rolls on axis per 100 at least 45 with less than 10 double pitches. Rolls with one die off axis less than 45. Both dice off axis less than 10. And those are seriously, the bare minimum. Forget numbers, its about consistancy. If you are consistant, the numbers will come.

Lets see, how I should govern the way I drive my bones pitching engine. 1…..vibrations…..I prefer using my intelligence, my knowledge of dice properties and follow my gut felling. 2…..I know too much…… WOW, that’s a first. As I predicted in the beginning of this thread, this post should stir the troops. Sure did. 3…..a personal philosophy quoting metaphors with a touch of seminar oriented instructions. Hmm, Dice go through untold numbers of rotations where there is no way I know of to know what they were. We can only conclude an event once the dice come to rest. I could spend untold hours formulating my personal observations to each of the 3 responses, but that is not an effective measure to pursue. I have a very SIMPLE effective way to deal with the magnitude of dice harbored traits. A whole dice approach considering both on and off axis outcomes. Each of you obviously in your own right have had to spend a great number of years to educate yourself in order to get the money to play craps just like I did. Here is a quote I generated that says it all. The most devastating or lucrative part of a craps game is the dice. Unless you understand their functional makeup, your fooling yourself. You cannot know too much about them. I listed but a few of their makeup components and got 3 opinions but not one addressed unitarily each item specifically. Is it they did not know their meaning or just didn’t want to divulge privileged information? Frankly one of the suggestions offered where single double pitch phenomenon was observed or different colored dice, seems to me like a lot of physical effort where a bit of mental effort would do. There is no time or possibility to have multi-colored dice or study of die pitch on a live table. There is time before the stick snakes back the dice after outcome to take a mental snapshot of an outcome telling you specifically the axial array the dice reside in. So simple, so effective it defies the K.I.S.S. principle. Any shooter with any modicum of intelligence wants to find an outcome where only two 7’s are possible. One of the few things the craps community seems to agree on. Hence the stock phrase of 7’s avoidance. Who cares if the outcome is on axis or not as long as we avoid the 7’s once point is set. I wonder how many of you can actually read the dice at outcome and know what BASIC SET ARRAY it resides in? Skewed or cocked dice is not a valid reason to avoid determining what that residency is. At this point I can save us all a lot of headaches. None of us will alter their thinking! We can do this two ways, consider the thread concluded or with civility talk things over without stoking the BBQ as I was told this would be. What I might say. On axis advocates. So you think you have met and beat probability for a hand. But all you saw was the top dice faces forming a number. Do you know from those numbers if you were on axis or not? Random shooters that don’t care what the dice axis outcome is, what does that top pair of numbers mean to you other than just another number? As to what kind of shooter I am. I am a Dice Conspirator. I conspire to observe them then utilize their full potential at preset and outcome. Linaway

Don't stop though, because your information is a "Good read" as compared to a lot of stuff in these forums. I may find anything "passed" setting the dice and shooting them is useless to me, I just care about and emphasize more of my mental abilities towards my wagers and not missing out on bets that came down. This is just my opinion. keep up the good reads though.