GROUP / TEAM PLAY IN ATLANTIC CITY

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by $nakeEye$, Oct 1, 2011.

  1. Greatest 7 Shooter in the World, Nov 8, 2011

    Greatest 7 Shooter in the World

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    3
    I think the object of this meet was to make money? Or was it to make a great dice game? Once everyone at the table shot the dice twice and everyone had a chance to see other dice form you should have bet on the best shooter and layed the people who were having a bad day.

    The moral was to take money from the house then you should have came up with the best strategy to do that. The thought that you could have 8 or 9 shooters at one table have great turns shooting the dice was a little far fetched.

    Also just a free tip the size of a players bankroll should give some indication of his level of confidence he or she has in there dice control.
     
    #141
  2. DeMango, Nov 8, 2011

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    5,808
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Gender:
    Male
    7 Shooter: Well said.
    The get together did as well as most do. I have often wondered why casinos would allow this, I guess they know better. In a related story the GTC crowd was tossed from Bellagio for their group shoot.
     
    #142

  3. idoc

    idoc Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    12
    Location:
    TN
    My guess is that the house still profits from Craps weather it be from random rollers or dice controllers. I think, once they lose their edge they may change the game in some way. Like blackjack... many tables use a 8 deck shoe to make card counting less effective.
     
    #143
  4. Southern-Comfort, Nov 8, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    31
    Which reminds me. I would suggest that anyone, when working with the casino to set up a private table, make a point of putting into the agreement that the players will get any sticks of dice used during play at the private table as trophies of the play. While I'm with those who feel that no honorable casino would risk using fishy dice, I also don't believe there are any honorable casinos. A little insurance isn't a bad thing, plus casino dice to practice with is a good thing.
     
    #144
  5. kaysirtap, Nov 8, 2011

    kaysirtap

    kaysirtap Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Messages:
    484
    Likes Received:
    22
    I wouldn't say that the house profits from dice controllers. Probably better to say that the house still profits from Craps when people fail to control or influence the dice. If the dice could be influenced, I'm sure the casino would lose money. Now the questions is... how often can dice controllers actually influence the dice, if at all?

    This would never happen. Dice have to be canceled before they are sold or given to the public. Additionally, they need to be available for the local gaming authorities (in the case of AC, the Casino Control Commission/Division of Gaming Enforcement) to inspect if they decide to do so before canceling them.
     
    #145
  6. Southern-Comfort, Nov 8, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    31
    Happens all the time. A quick glance at ebay will demonstrate that uncancelled dice leave the casino floor all the time.
    It never hurts to ask. They may say no, they may say yes. They may say no and do it anyway. Stuff disappears from casino inventory constantly.
    I'm not in the business (Sorry SnakeEyes), but I'm unaware of any laws requiring dice to be cancelled prior to being given away. maybe a local law, I think that if dice are cancelled in Jersey, the law is they have to be drilled. But the rest of the country, I think the reason casinos cancel dice is to assure themselves they won't be back on their tables, and have nothing to do with law. I'm certainly open to correction on this.
     
    #146
  7. kaysirtap, Nov 8, 2011

    kaysirtap

    kaysirtap Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Messages:
    484
    Likes Received:
    22
    Yes, dice do sometimes disappear. I saw a die roll under a table one time and nobody could find it. When the game went dead, it was discovered that there was a hole in the carpet and the floor, and everybody assumed that this is where the die fell. With a flashlight, someone was able to fish it out of this hole... but the numbers didn't match - it was from a different stick. The original die was never found.

    It is also possible that the dice slipped through the cancellation process. One time I found unused and uncanceled cards that were from a real casino being used at a fundraiser in New York by a casino party company. I recognized the cards from a small casino near Seattle, Washington, where I happened to be friends with management. When I notified executives, they discovered that the distributor incorrectly thought the casino didn't exist anymore, and they agreed on some sort of settlement... or so I was told.

    I tried searching eBay, but I could not locate any dice that were definitively used in a casino AND uncanceled. Can you PM me a link if you have one? Thanks.

    Indeed, I do not know if there are laws or regulations requiring the practice of canceling dice in all gaming jurisdictions (the one for NJ is here: http://www.nj.gov/casinos/actreg/reg/docs_chapter46/c46s01sec15to19b.pdf ). However, when applying for a casino license, it is typically required to submit what are known as Internal Controls, which among other things outlines (for New Jersey) "Procedures and security standards for the handling and storage of gaming apparatus including cards, dice, machines, wheels and all other gaming equipment". Furthermore, "The division and its employees and agents, upon approval of the director, shall have the authority, without notice and without warrant: ...To inspect all equipment and supplies in, about, upon or around such premises; To seize summarily and remove from such premises and impound any such equipment or supplies for the purposes of examination and inspection". Most of the time, of course, they don't need to do any of this. While there may not be any laws about this, it is general casino policy to cancel equipment before being made available to the public. Canceling equipment such as dice, cards, tiles, etc. are done just for the reason you state - to prevent the equipment from coming back onto the game. Gaming equipment is logged (for Craps, the dice number) when it is put into play, and also has to be logged out when they are replaced or the game closes. They are also usually tracked before they are canceled, destroyed, sold, et cetera. You'd have a hard time explaining to an inspector why a whole stick of dice is unaccounted for. As all of this is likely in any casino's internal controls, it would be a violation for them to simply give away or even arrange to give away dice to some people who want to reserve a private table.

    But again, you're right... it never hurts to ask :)
     
    #147
  8. $nakeEye$, Nov 8, 2011

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    4,070
    Likes Received:
    999
    Obviously, the entire concept of this venture was to eliminate " idiotic " players and assemble a group of " knowledgable " and also " dedicated " and "practiced " controlled shooters - and to win money -

    Rule #1 from the inception of this get together - NO DarkSide Wagering -

    Regards " strategy " - everyone played with their own bank and bet according to their own desires -

    Your " far fetched " opinion is in dispute - there are numerous reasons that everyone did not perform to their expectations - the consensus is ALL of us would do it over again - I believe everyone was under an inordinate amount of pressure to " perform " - and as a result - some probably tried too hard - either mentally, physically or Both -

    The bankroll size was a requirement to obtain the PT - my usual BI at the $10 - $15 table level is $200 - at the $5 level it is $100 -

    My BI at the PT event was $2K - Linda's was $1K -

    This was " front " or " show " money - there was no way in hell that I or anyone else for that matter - was going to put their entire BI " at risk " !

    I have no regrets about the results of the outcome of the " party " - I believe that a good time was had by all -

    I also believe, that a " better " time would have been had by all if we were " on our game " !

    You win some - you lose some - " That's Life " !!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    #148
  9. Greatest 7 Shooter in the World, Nov 9, 2011

    Greatest 7 Shooter in the World

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    3
    If your comfort zone was about a 15 dollar bet that tells me right away if i am clocking ability at the table that you are more of a craps player who like to play craps than a exp dice settor. And why would you bring a 2k buy in with no intention of putting that in play to get you back in the black if you had a few rolls that took some bad bounces or hit a chip. That also indicates your previous wins vs losses that display your dice rolls vs bankroll management skills and lack of.

    I think pride kept this group from winning money which should have been the ultimate goal. First off to have a no darkside betting rule is idiotic. Secondly communication should have been "commanded' by one coach who was acting as the head of the table for this reason alone. I will explain.

    Come out roll gives a point 10 or 4. At this point the shooter should have a 6/8 grip and table should not take odds if they have a comeout bet. Inside numbers are placed for 3 rolls depending on confidence of shooter. After 3 rolls or less to break even on the come out bet you are going to loose. At that point a verbal call to all bettors should be announced to take down inside bets and switch to a lay bet against the 10 or 4 and the shooter switches to a 7 grip and tries to 7 out planting the dice short of the wall and ignoring the warning you are going to get from the house after you dont hit the back wall and just make it sound like the dice slipped out of your hand or you short armed it. Odds at this 7 coming out before the 10 and the table winning is high.

    Come out roll is a 6 or 8. This is when your convention craps play is used

    Come out roll is a 5 or 9 this strat should be up to the player who honestly tells the "coach" if based on his performance does he think he can hit the number. This is the number that will have the table vary there bets the most. also a players bet size on himself will effect my decision making on if i think he feels he is going to make this point.


    Following these basic craps betting principles will be the only way a group outing could keep the edge over the house and have most players walking away from the table up.

    Also advanced strats would also aid these tips if one player got hot and all others passed the dice back to that player after a hot roll. Sometimes pride gets in the way of this but its the best way to maximize a hot shooter because I know in the past I have been on some 40+ roll runs and then i chip out. 35 mins later when the dice get back to me I have to get back into the groove again.

    Just some basic outside observations. I will be down for something like this when I return to the states in April but as I have stated here in my posts if I look at your form and results I will lay anyone who i think can make me money including myself because I am that disciplined in my betting strats.
     
    #149
  10. The Midnight Skulker, Nov 9, 2011

    The Midnight Skulker

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2010
    Messages:
    4,131
    Likes Received:
    4,469
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    Back in the day (pre-9/11) a few of us DIers from the Usenet newsgroup would convene in Las Vegas. "Walk the walk" was not yet a term in vogue yet, but speaking only for myself I know the pressure to do so was significant, and based on my memory of those sessions I suspect it was for others as well. It was a great relief to get that first pass, and the sooner it came the better I did overall. Kind of like the old joke: What is the difference between concern and panic? Concern is the first time you can't get it up the second time; panic is the second time you can't get it up the first time.
     
    #150
  11. BigBen, Nov 10, 2011

    BigBen

    BigBen Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    44
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NY, The State of Confusion!

    LOL...
     
    #151
  12. $nakeEye$, Nov 10, 2011

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    4,070
    Likes Received:
    999
    Easy for you to say - Junior !


    Then again -

    I just might resemble that remark !
     
    #152
  13. BigBen, Nov 10, 2011

    BigBen

    BigBen Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    44
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NY, The State of Confusion!
    Some of the betting strategies above sound reasonable...
    But I just gotta love the "Monday Morning Quarterbacks"...

    This was the first time I organized one of these, and my first goal was to find serious people (hopefully DI's) that would actually show-up with a reasonable BI.
    Next time, we'll focus on some betting strategies.

    If you want to bet "Dark" on a table that Amato & I put together, you can find another table to play on.
    Yeah, yeah, I know, I know... We're all there to make money one way or another, but betting "Dark" on one "our tables" is a no-no.
    Sorry for the bluntness, but that's just the way it is.


    BigBen
     
    #153
  14. $nakeEye$, Nov 10, 2011

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    4,070
    Likes Received:
    999
    Ben -

    My sentiments exactly -

    However I was going to use a few more Anglo-Saxon expletives just to drive the point home !

    Job well done - Sir !!!!!!!!!!
     
    #154
  15. BigBen, Nov 10, 2011

    BigBen

    BigBen Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    44
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NY, The State of Confusion!
    Thank you.

    And not for nothing, but at lease WE have the brass-nuts to tell the TRUTH about what happened, and not sugar-coat the end results like some people do!
    Ya know what I mean?


    BB
     
    #155
  16. $nakeEye$, Nov 10, 2011

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    4,070
    Likes Received:
    999
    Ben -

    " It is what it is " -

    Good, Bad, Ugly or whatever !

    We're heading back down this weekend -

    If you're so inclined .........................
     
    #156
  17. BigBen, Nov 10, 2011

    BigBen

    BigBen Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    44
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NY, The State of Confusion!
    Good luck this weekend.

    Working Saturday, not sure about Sunday though, we might head out into the ocean for some fishing...


    BB
     
    #157
  18. kaysirtap, Nov 10, 2011

    kaysirtap

    kaysirtap Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Messages:
    484
    Likes Received:
    22
    I'm going to have to agree with BigBen on this one... IF someone was able to influence the dice (can I make the "if" any bigger?), this would no doubt require an extraordinary amount of skill. Since my understanding is that this is precisely what the group is trying to do (aside from making money), I would then think that a fellow group member betting dark shows a lack of support and confidence in what the shooter is trying to do. This, in turn, can affect the shooter's own confidence, and then affect his or her skill - whether you're shooting dice, darts, or pool.

    Just the same if your teammate were to go to the plate in the bottom of the 9th with 2 out, bases loaded, and down by 1 run, and the entire team negatively says, "Well, the game is over", and starts packing up their equipment.

    Just my opinion.
     
    #158
  19. Greatest 7 Shooter in the World, Nov 10, 2011

    Greatest 7 Shooter in the World

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    3
    Once again this confirms my first statement that this is not a meet to establish a edge over the house and exploit it to make money this is a group meet of people who like to play craps and want to try and beat the house the conventional way. Nothing wrong with that but over a long period of times you are all going to loose because you are not exploiting edges and have no reason to have a "private" table because you are betting a 98% the same strat as the other "open" tables at the house with everyone there hoping to get on a hot roll. If not they all loose we have all seen it 1000x times.

    And i am sorry if I am blunt about seeing someone toss at the table and identifying immediately that they are basically a chicken feeder and have no skill what so ever and yes I will lay them on a point 4 and 10 all day everyday. Pride is what makes people think that a guy who can roll the dice 2-3 times after his point and crap out is a bad thing. He is a walking ATM machine and should be exploited as such. Its the one sided view of the game that will keep you in the red.
     
    #159
  20. Greatest 7 Shooter in the World, Nov 10, 2011

    Greatest 7 Shooter in the World

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    3
    if we are going to use sports as a reference then i will explain my point like this. The reason sports teams have coaches is to eliminate the players ego factor and pull him out of the game and sub in a player who gives the team the best chance to win. Also just like all of us who watch sports can take a look at the #9 hitter and just of his stance and swings he makes we can quickly find out why he is the #9 hitter on the team. Thats why bases loaded 2 outs in the 9th they are pulled for a guy who sits on the bench and just comes in to hit because he gives the team a better chance to win.

    Same goes with craps. you should be able to see someones toss and no right away if they are displaying a advantage over the house or not. I have seen alot of so called dice settors set the dice and then after the toss not care if they kept them on axis or how hard they hit the back wall. This does not display the advantage over the house that I would bet on.

    Now a guy who toss is so soft that he is warned repeatedly by the dealers to hit the back wall, now that guy is taking one of the main advantages away from the house (the tits) and I would in the long run odds wise come out better backing that guy over a basic random shooter.
     
    #160
Reminder: This is the Dice Influencing section.