GROUP / TEAM PLAY IN ATLANTIC CITY

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by $nakeEye$, Oct 1, 2011.

  1. kaysirtap, Nov 10, 2011

    kaysirtap

    kaysirtap Member

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    Wouldn't this imply then that the strategy should be to request that the shooter pass the dice to the next "pinch shooter", rather than bet dark?

    I equate betting dark in a situation like this to having the manager of the team allow the 9-spot hitter to bat... but then betting with a bookie that he will make an out... and making it known to the rest of the team.

    I am not anti-strategy when it comes to betting. I was stating my opinion that showing a lack of support and confidence for one person can affect their own confidence and skill - thereby exacerbating the problem.
     
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  2. The Midnight Skulker, Nov 10, 2011

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    I agree. I gathered one of the goals of the meet-up was to form an informal team of DIers to relieve the casino of some of its cash. I normally consider betting the Don'ts to be as Greatest 7 Shooter describes: that is, not a bet against the shooter personally. In a team setting, however, unless the shooter is trying to "lose" it does show a lack of confidence, which in turn sets up an adversarial relationship between the "team" members, which is contrary to the team formation goal of the meet-up. Better, I should think, to suggest that shooters having an off day pass the dice, or simply refrain from betting on their rolls.
     
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  3. Southern-Comfort, Nov 10, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

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    Before I add my own rant to this discussion, I feel the need to stae first off that I, myself, am not a darkside bettor. I have only made one darkside bet in the past year and that was of neccessity. That being said, as I watched BigBen posting to see if he could get enough players to get this private table, it was not advertised as a team event. He was asking others to put up their own $1000 buyin and as such, well.. if I am expected to risk my own $1000, I promise you I will bet however the hell I want to bet. You can be my boss when you pay me for that privilege.
    Now, about darkside bettors, I actually like one or two of them at a table I play at. And its not about beating them, but trying to win for me first, and unless they are only don't-pass guys, trying to win some for them as well. Its a pretty cool challenge.
    Now, if the play was as a TEAM, then yeah, play basically the team way... but a team that isn't flexible is just diluting and wins with the losses rather than taking advantage of what comes its way. I just cannot understand why people are so offended by darksiders. Maybe its because they put their pants on two legs at a time?
     
    #163
  4. $nakeEye$, Nov 10, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    Southern-Comfort -

    I have no qualms about betting DarkSide against certain players -

    When one looks at the quality or lack therof - of some of these " shooters " -

    How can anyone in their right mind - while sober - bet with some of these characters -

    I think the overall premise / reasoning behind the " No DarkSide Betting Rule " -

    Was simply to lend moral and mental support to the entire group -

    Individually and collectively -

    Granted - I fully expected and anticipated from the get-go that the majority of shooters would have a slow start -

    For one reason or another -

    Under ideal conditions - it takes me a few hands at the table to get in the groove -

    Regardless of how many practice tosses I had prior to going to the casino -

    What also needs to be considered - and was not addressed directly -

    Was the fact that each shooter had placed an additional mental burden upon their own shoulders by the mere fact that each of is well above the Random Roller level-

    And as a result - demand and expect of ourselves nothing less than a " stellar performance " - after all we have a lot of practice and play hours invested in our throws -

    Throw in a couple of PSO's and early 7 out's -

    And you have the recipe for a potential disaster -

    Only because of the mental aspect - beating yourself up at the table - disgruntled because your performance was not up to YOUR OWN level of play and expectation -

    At a table with strangers - one has the - " F*ck It attitude " - you throw good , fine - you throw lousy - " When I get the dice next time - I'll do better " -

    Personally, I stand behind the no DS bet rule 1000% and when we play again - which we will - that rule will be maintained and enforced !
     
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  5. Greatest 7 Shooter in the World, Nov 10, 2011

    Greatest 7 Shooter in the World

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    When one looks at the quality or lack therof - of some of these " shooters " -
    Once again its not a knock on someone that they are just not good as "the beer" is telling them they are and using that to your advantage. Not one of us can say we have not had bad days at the tables and just face it some people are just born losers. If you enter a casino to shoot craps and you loose 8-10 times you need to think about laying yourself. And that's a FACT. You just need to realize that you are not getting a advantage on the house and once a "lucky" roll is taken away and your results are set over time you need to track your shots and write them down. And trust me once this is done you will see your pattern and then and only then can you say with the way I shoot I have a advantage on certain numbers over a period of time and certain numbers you are in the negative on. Eliminate the negs or even half of them and you now have a advantage!

    "How can anyone in their right mind - while sober - bet with some of these characters" There is a reason why a lay bet only pays 50% because you have a total advantage betting with the house that a shooter is going to crap out before they hit there number. If not the game would be closed down and no casino would host it.

    "Was simply to lend moral and mental support to the entire group " Moral support? WTF Actually anyone who needs moral support or mental support is out of there comfort zone and nothing your cheering is going to do a bit of difference with him gaining a edge over the house. You are then betting for someone you don't even know to get shit lucky. Bad plan


    don't get me wrong guys I love the idea of a group of advantage players getting together and taking the house however it does not sound like any advantages are being exploited here and you are just hoping someone gets lucky. You really need to get a plan and a backup plan and a backup plan. Also you need a coach or a captain who calls the shots based off what he is seeing. And if someone is just having a bad day have the balls to tell them to pass to a better shooter "that day" because for every bad shooter you need two good ones to get back in the black and with the odds against you already that is not a good idea. That should be the basis for having the private table if not why have one? Because if someone is doing more harm to the group than good you got to cut him or her out. Black and white. Because not betting on a shooter because you think he sucks is worst than laying him because you loose money both ways. And don't be afraid to pass the dice all the way around the table right back to the hot shooter.

    the main guy I shoot craps with has a killer 7 grip on the comeout and the absolute best 6-8 grip I have ever seen in person. I would never dream of laying him or dont passing him on a point 6 or 8. I actually bet heavy on the inside when he shoots because he is good for a few points and 5-6 inside number wins consistantly. However once I have made my money from him on the inside and he has throw the dice 8 or 9 times I take my inside bets down on him and move to a lay 4 bet. Not that I don't think he is going to continue to throw numbers I am just taking the odds that he will 7 out. He has no problem with this and does the same when i shoot. Because we know at that point we are playing with house money and against the odds of the 7 out. And I also take no offense to it because over the course of the night that betting strat works for us and we leave up 9 out 10 times.

    I hope you seriously take my advise. The Casino hopes you don't.
     
    #165
  6. $nakeEye$, Nov 10, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    Greatest 7 ........

    I can see where you are coming from -

    The bottom line is to " Beat the House " -

    I believe that everyone on this forum, the DiceInstitute forum , Heavy's Axis forum and the rest -

    All share the same " Bottom Line " -

    It is us against them -

    On the other hand -

    I must say this -

    We are in this for the " long term " - not the short term - " Hit them hard and run " -

    From the gist of what you posted regards your " Vegas " episode -

    You and your comrade got the heave - ho from one or more casinos due to your antics at the table -

    Short throws - short arming - not hitting the back wall - whatever -

    Long story short -

    Your " Welcome " mat was revoked and replaced with " Go Away " -

    I play a unique and extremely sophisticated Black Jack system -

    Dates to circa 1980's -

    It is not found in any published books sold in book stores -

    I endeavour / strive to accomplish the same with my craps game / strategedy -

    I think the big point that was missed here -

    Is simply this -

    A group of individuals banded together to try their individual luck at a table void of random rollers and otherwise unknowledgeable craps players -

    That, my friend , is the essence of our get-together -

    There was never a " TEAM " - there was no intent to form a team -

    As an aside - when I played BJ on a regular basis in AC - I was a member of a " TEAM " -

    I paid counters to back count tables and signal me when the count turned positive -

    That's a whole nother scenario - Ah, the good ole days -

    Gotta go have dinner, now !
     
    #166
  7. Greatest 7 Shooter in the World, Nov 11, 2011

    Greatest 7 Shooter in the World

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    Yes is true and just like card counting you used a slight advantage over the house. Same goes with craps with not hitting the back wall. And yes I use it all the time and will use it with my dice sets from now until the end of time. And yes I will be asked to leave a few casinos from time to time because they know I have the edge over them. When you are loosing the house does not care what you do. Start winning and they will do everything they can to "slow" roll you, "cool" you and everything else they have and if that does not work they will just ask you to leave. My bets also don't help my popularity with the house either. I buy in for 3-4-5k normally and I lay the 4 on the come out for min 500 with a DP bet of table min. And as I get farther into the black with house money my come outs are into the 1k and up mark and yes this sets off every alarm in the house.

    And I will say this and I hope every guy on here who has watched 3 youtube videos on dice setting and thinks he can do it better listen because this is the best free advise you are ever going to get.

    YOUR DICE SETS ARE NO ADVANTAGE TO YOU IF YOUR DICE HIT THE BACK WALL.


    Same goes for your private table. Someone gets hot and you guys are pounding them for 2-3k each X 9 players they are shutting that table down. You can guarantee that.
     
    #167
  8. $nakeEye$, Nov 12, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    G7 -

    Some of your responses / reasons / explanations -

    I can definitely relate to - especially in my BlackJack playing younger days -

    The casinos will attempt to cut your winning streak short by whatever and every method available at their disposal -

    I have been shuffled up on and chased around more casinos than I can recall or want to admit to -

    Not counting the times that I've had bets pushed back and restricted to 1 hand play as oppossed to my usual 2 hand play -

    That aside - let's get back on track with craps - that's what this aspect of this board is focused on -


    Your intentional and deliberate " short throw " technique does not only not sit well with me -

    But obviously with each and every casino that you play in -

    You have admitted as much yourself -

    I am acutely aware of the undesireable effects / influence that the back pyramids can exhibit on each and every throw -

    WTF - do you think you are the only person who is aware of this -

    You might very well be the only person who can not cope with this - or is unable to " beat the house at its' own game " -


    I, for one, and just about every other person who " influences " the dice - if they are worth anything -

    Plays the game according to the established rules -

    The dice must hit the back wall in order to be considered a legitimate throw -

    What is wrong with that picture -

    Granted , depending on how and where the dice strike the back wall - you might lose a certain amount or ALL of your dice setting advantage -

    But - one must learn the ideal landing area where the BW and the pyramids have little or no effect on the outcome of the throw -

    Obviously, you have not arrived at that destination as of yet -

    As your attitude is to circumvent the established rules and attempt to get away with what the casinos might construe as " cheating " -

    I would suggest that you re-focus your energies on establishing a bona-fide throw which abides by the rules of the game and also minimizes what you deem as a no advantage throw -

    Upon doing so - I am more than certain that your playing longevity will be greatly enhanced and your welcome mat not revoked as often, if at all, as it is now -

    My attitude is simply this - " Beat them at their own game - playing by their own rules " -

    It is most definitely achievable - if you put your mind to it !
     
    #168
  9. $nakeEye$, Nov 12, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    I like your betting style regards your buddy and you -

    You have to know the capabalities and limitations of every one in the group -

    Obviously, that only comes with continued play together -

    And then again - one could have an exceptionally good day or then an exceptionally bad day -

    Like Clint so succinctly states - " A man has to know his limitations " !!!!!!!!!!!
     
    #169
  10. Greatest 7 Shooter in the World, Nov 12, 2011

    Greatest 7 Shooter in the World

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    "What is wrong with that picture -

    Granted , depending on how and where the dice strike the back wall - you might lose a certain amount or ALL of your dice setting advantage -

    But - one must learn the ideal landing area where the BW and the pyramids have little or no effect on the outcome of the throw -

    Obviously, you have not arrived at that destination as of yet -"


    No one believes a word of what you just said. The basis of dice setting is to keep the dice on axis. How the fuck are you going to sit here and tell us you have to know the exact spot to hit the back wall and landing zone? Total fucking BS and if you do believe this in your head you must have bought someones system and have not lost enough to chalk it up. How many points did you make with this "secret zone" you were in.

    Wow man and I have a real big question for you. If you were the man at blackjack and paying people to scout tables and cleaning up why the F did u switch to a game where you are displaying a negative advantage over the house? Oh and not to mention you are a min bettor so shit is not adding up.
     
    #170
  11. kaysirtap, Nov 12, 2011

    kaysirtap

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    Like G7, I'd like to know how hitting the pyramids has little or no effect on attempting to influence the dice. There are typically two spots on the wall that have no pyramids - a thin angled strip just above the layout and below the pyramids, and a wider strip above the pyramids. I will concede the idea that if these areas could be hit on a consistent basis AND at just the right angle (likely flush to the edges of the dice), that any attempts to control the dice might be easier. The wider part could probably be hit on a consistent basis only while the dice were on the fly, and although I've never tried it, I'd think that the force required to do this (either at the high or low angle) would cause the dice to rebound into other bets on the layout (causing a random throw). The thinner part is angled towards the pyramids, so it would take an extremely precise throw w/rotation to make sure the dice did not hit the pyramids after hitting this strip.

    But I'd still like to know... how does hitting the pyramids have little or no effect on attempting to influence the dice?
     
    #171
  12. Southern-Comfort, Nov 12, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

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    The pyramids, when they were "invented" in an attempt to make all dice rolls totally random, were made the exact size as the dice (try it, you can insert dice in the pyramids and its a perfect fit). To totally eliminate "control", that was a bad move. When the dice hit pretty much -straight on- into them one of three things will happen, two are good and one can be bad. The dice hit the points and inertia has the side of the dice with the most mass turn inside and slip in.. they cannot contine to twirl until they come out. And the laws of physics says they will come out,straight down their centeerline.. a good way of control. The pyramids, in this case, pretty much act as stabilizers and can, to a degree, even fix a slightly bad throw. If both do that, the pyramids are defeated. The second thing that can happen is whae DI's actually try for.. hit the pyramids with such light forsce that there is not enough energy left to do anything but fall back.
    The times that the dice are actully truely ranomized are when you thow them toward the middle (oe beyond) of the backwall, or if the dice split when they hit the table so that they do not hit the backwall together. Its theory, sure.. but watch someone who is good over a period of time, and you'll have to agree the rolls are longer.
     
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  13. $nakeEye$, Nov 12, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    Re-read what I said about landing the dice and executing a " legal " roll -

    I said NOTHING about striking the pyramids -

    I shoot from SO and attempt to land the dice at the juncture of the base of the pyramids and the felt -

    Thereby eliminating or considerably reducing the effect of the pyramid rubber -

    I do not even attempt to lightly bounce the dice off the pyramids -

    Any striking of the pyramids on the back wall causes randomization of the dice and negates the effects of setting the dice -

    Linda throws UH from SR1 and rolls the dice up to the base of the rubber -

    My throw also has a lot of back spin on it - so when the dice strike the table felt - at the juncture of the angled base rubber -

    Hopefully they just stop and stick - with minumum splatter -

    And maintaining the integrity of my dice set !
     
    #173
  14. kaysirtap, Nov 12, 2011

    kaysirtap

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    That's interesting. The pyramids do have 45-degree angles rising from the back of the wall, so yes, a die could fit in between two of them. I don't have one of those fancy cameras to check it... but I'm not so sure that hitting the points of the pyramids would necessarily cause them to then "slip" perfectly into the gap between two pyramids. What if the a corner of the face of the die hit the point? Wouldn't it try to fall into the corner between four pyramids? I don't see how the die would become stable after that. Isn't the only way the die would fit nicely into those little crevices is if the point of the pyramid struck the die along one of it's horizontal or vertical center-lines (like drawing cross hairs on the dice)? ...And that's assuming the die then "slides", instead of the friction of the rubber causing the face of a die to sort of "bridge the gap" between two pyramids. I would think any other striking point will tilt the die in a direction other than right into the crevice.
    If the dice fall back, the pyramids have already had an effect, no? Even the lightest touch of the pyramids is enough to turn the die over one face.

    I think what you had to say was interesting, and I'd like to hear more.

    Sorry, I can't re-read what you said about that because I can't find it. Doesn't matter, I know what a valid roll is... although if they really stopped just at the end of the table, I'm sure many boxpeople (persons?) would ask you to hit the back wall, even though you technically are. Then you'd argue that you are, and he'd ask you to throw just a bit harder... then you'd call the floor over, and he/she probably wouldn't see the big deal with you just throwing a bit harder, maybe even saying that you're not really "hitting" the back wall... then you'd say, "if I land my fist into your face, but it doesn't bounce off, would that count as 'hitting' you?"...could get ugly.

    Anyway... since you believe that:
    I'll let you and Southern-Comfort duke it out.
     
    #174
  15. $nakeEye$, Nov 12, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    Ah yes - and that vivid imagination once again comes into play !

    That has yet to happen and I do not see that happening in the near or distant future -

    Technically and in all actuality , I am complying with the casino's written rules - to " hit the wall higher and / or harder " is NOT in their written rule book !

    And yes, I would dispute it - but not in the manner that you envision me doing so !
     
    #175
  16. kaysirtap, Nov 12, 2011

    kaysirtap

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    ...shall have the authority to invalidate a roll of the dice by calling "No Roll" for any of the following reasons:
    1. The dice do not leave the shooter's hand simultaneously;
    2. Either or both of the dice fail to strike an end of the table;
    3. Either or both of the dice come to rest on the chips constituting the craps bank of chips located in front of the boxperson.
    4. Either or both of the dice come to rest in the dice cup in front of the craps stickperson, or in front of the the mini-craps dealer or stickperson, or on one of the rails surrounding the table;
    5. The use of a cheating, crooked or fixed device or technique in the roll of the dice; and,
    6. For any other reason the craps boxperson or stickperson, or the mini-craps dealer or stickperson considers the throw to be improper.

    -NJ Casino Control Commission, Chapter 47


    Read into that as you like. I hope you'll never have to argue with casino personnel about the interpretation of these rules.
     
    #176
  17. basicstrategy777, Nov 12, 2011

    basicstrategy777

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    There are some tosses that MUST be called a "no roll" and there are some tosses that MAY be called a "no roll"

    The box has some discretion on some tosses of the dice.

    777
     
    #177
  18. Southern-Comfort, Nov 12, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

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    [quote author="kaysirtap" date="1321147948"]
    If the dice fall back, the pyramids have already had an effect, no? Even the lightest touch of the pyramids is enough to turn the die over one face.

    I think what you had to say was interesting, and I'd like to hear more.

     
    #178
  19. kaysirtap, Nov 12, 2011

    kaysirtap

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    ... how much do one of those fancy high-speed cameras for watching slow motion stuff cost?

    I'm sorry, but wouldn't the dice still have to be struck by the pyramids along the vertical centerline in order to not yaw/roll to the side?
     
    #179
  20. $nakeEye$, Nov 12, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    With practice if you can land the dice at the base of the pyramids - at the juncture of the table felt and the angled base of the back wall -

    You can eliminate most, if not all, of the detrimantal influence of the diamond pyramids -

    The problem with the current " BJ " game in AC these days is that there is limitation on your allowed wagering if you can enter the table mid-shoe -

    Most if not all houses restrict your wagers to no more than table min IF they allow mid-shoe entry at all -

    We played at the $25 min tables - played two hands and spread bets from 8 to 16 units on each of the two hands -

    Or table min when the count went down if we did not arrive at our table departure point number - minus count -

    Left that table after the end of the shoe - and awaited another signal from the spotter indicating a positive shoe !
     
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