Lets get this... Straight

Discussion in 'General Craps Discussion' started by SevenOut, Sep 2, 2018.

  1. SevenOut, Sep 2, 2018

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    #1- Forum Member(s) meet one another for a friendly conversation about Craps.
    #2- Those conversations are shared among fellow members who are already 'The Group'.
    #3- These members turn... sour... on this new or old member.
    #4- This Group will spend much of their time, bad mouthing this member. Now on the Outs.
    #5- This goes on as long as this Forum Members posts, reacts to a post, or might be reading posts.

    Meet and Greet. If you do not want to be introduced to the "Group", you are now the target. Unless, you are smart and know what you are talking about, defending yourself.

    I am focused upon Bubble Craps and the piece of lumber and layout, called a Craps Table. Both require intelligence and Craps Skills. One is not preferred over the other. They are both Games of Chance.

    One is not more superior to the other, elbow to elbow at the Craps Table, or the Bubble Craps. Bubble Craps actually is a bit more... difficult, due to the wagering on a computer screen and not glaze eyed upon finding your wagers on a Craps Table layout.

    From following current threads... I do not need any Craps Friends or Buddies off of the Forum. I will not alter my opinions for... 'friends'. I do not discuss Craps, except on a Public Forum, as my words could be taken to mean about anything and posted as person to person "QUOTES by SevenOut".

    I get it. TDV obviously made the mistake, as myself. Some others, as well. If someone were to say the things that have been said to TDV and several others... you will be lucky if I show you to the door... while it is open.

    Those at the present, know who I am speaking. A couple of you are fresh in my mind. I enjoy debating Craps, but if you cannot focus on Dice and a Craps Table... remove me from you list of... SUCKERS.
     
    #1
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
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  2. TDVegas, Sep 3, 2018

    TDVegas

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    As I see it...One must believe in dice control and the ability to skew roll data in your favor to gain an edge over the game to employ the word "craps skill". In games of chance, which I believe roulette and craps fall into....there is no skill. I've never heard of a skilled roulette player. Obviously there are strategies. Strategy is not skill. I generally equate the word skill on a physical level with craps..not just wagering skill. I would put craps wagering under strategy or strategic play.

    While it may split hairs...a strategy can be taught to anyone. 1 + 1 = 2.
    A skill...as it relates to craps is a different animal and must have a physical connotation.
     
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  3. SevenOut, Sep 3, 2018

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    TDV... Roulette has... Wheel Timers.

    The old System was a Dealer had a following of Roulette Players. His Roulette Ball was consistent and those who were 'Timers' would watch the release of the Ball and work the group of numbers expected.

    These players were much like Dice Influencers. Just had a memory of those different numbers and wager on them.

    The wheel now is rotating at one speed, and this is to get the Wheel Timers back into the Game.

    Bubble Roulette is the Wheel Timers DI at the DI Bubble Craps game.

    What Craps DI fail to master is How to Master Wagering on expected Outcomes.
     
    #3
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  4. James Hall, Sep 3, 2018

    James Hall

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    Was this statement meant to include all DIs
    or was it meant in a general sense as:
    Generally DIs fail to master wagering on expected outcomes???
     
    #4
  5. TDVegas, Sep 3, 2018

    TDVegas

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    Understood. I would still classify this as a "strategic play", not a skilled play. The guy who has timed this could simply tell the guy next to him. Is that guy now skilled? I would argue no. It’s a tactical, strategic play much like golfer choosing to lay up on a par 5 instead of going for the green in 2.

    Again...I would classify all of these as a strategic plays.

    If someone can count a 6 deck shuffle in their head....I would certainly consider that a talent, a skill.

    If certain numbers are appearing in craps based on toss, mechanics, and set....I would consider that person a skilled player. Would the player who is simply observing and betting certain numbers skilled? I would argue no.

    He's making a strategic play off someone else's skill.
     
    #5
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  6. superrick, Sep 3, 2018

    superrick

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    Nice SuperRick here, TDV if you ever bought a book on casino management you would see that they have craps listed as a game of chance! Now it that is 100% true then why do they hassel someone that is setting the dice and just getting lucky? Could it be that they two have read to much fiction put out by some of the DI schools?

    It really doesn't matter this board is going to die because you can't post on it and most of the time you can't even get on it. One of my buddies told me that you can't even join it!
     
    #6
  7. SevenOut, Sep 3, 2018

    SevenOut

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    Signing on takes some ingenuity. You get an error message, go another route. Signs of Genius, I think.

    James, not All. Of course not. There are more Dice Chuckers that really should not be allowed near a Craps Table.

    DI's should have a predetermined System, catered to their Dice Set and expected outcomes. Just as much time should be spent on System Development, as Dice Sets and DI.

    Lineaway and Son have perfected the Dice Sets and possible Outcomes. They no doubt also cover how to rotate a die to tweak the 'random outcome' at a particular table. Genius, I think. Neither seem to post any longer, but I have the highest respect for their fantastic paper.

    I would have to believe that 'Professional DI's' do match sets to outcomes to System.

    From my short introduction to DI's... they could use some brushing up on why they are setting dice and why their System is so Spread Out on the table. I would, if I possessed DI control, have a System for my Dice Sets.

    Yes... everyone says they do. Well, lets hear it. What is your set. What is your expected Outcomes. What is your wagering System at the Live Craps Table.

    I have been a member for nearly eight years. I have yet to see much in the Craps System Wagering, other than my own, which I can defend against most, if not all critics. It is not a personal thing. It is applying knowledge to dice outcomes for a DI.

    For a Dice Chucker as myself, my Systems focus on the Full Monte 50% of all outcomes are covered. If they are rolled, great. If not... that is why Craps is a Game of Chance. Not a Ferris Wheel where everyone rides for free and gets a Get A Win coupon after your turn.

    (Here to Hear typo updated)
     
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    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
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  8. superrick, Sep 3, 2018

    superrick

    superrick Member

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    Nice SuperRick Here, I've said it for years that most DI's are the worst betters. They took a class and they will only do what they were taught in that class. Most classes taught to only bet on the 6's and 8's and I still laugh every time I see one of these guys that are doing that and they are rolling nothing but outside box numbers!


    If you don't know how to bet you are just wasting your time on a craps table. One of the many instructors that I've known for years has got to be one of the worst better I've seen on a craps table.


    They still write about his big rolls and when I hear about them I know that he didn't make any money on them! I read one of his trip reports after someone sent it to me where he wrote he won big on the All Tall Small. That really gave me a big laugh because the most I ever saw him bet was One, One, One and you would have thought that they were pulling his teeth to even put a $1 bet on each of the bets!


    It doesn't have to be rocket science to figure out how to bet what you are rolling but some guys are just as dumb as a box of rocks as I like to put it!
    I know some damn good dice chuckers that beat the game with their brain and how they bet it.

    Sevenout just happens to be one of them!
    But get this he will not be playing by the math of the game. He knows that craps is all about risk and rewards!




    Some players will never get it, they read something in a book and that is all there is to it in their minds. So they will never waiver from betting low house edge bets even when the table is only hitting the outside numbers!
    If sevenout posted how he bet most on this board would want to string him up and hang him!

    It's sad to say that he has common sense and some others on this board doesn't even know what common sense is!

    By the way, this is not being arrogant it's telling it like it is!
     
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  9. James Hall, Sep 3, 2018

    James Hall

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    Here we are with "TDV never heard of it so it
    "JUST CAN'T BE" again.
    Strategy is a tool that takes skill to use.
    Strategy is exactly what the term implies.
    The ABILITY to choose the particular strategy that works at
    that particular time , "Betting what the dice are giving you"
    takes some degree of experience / know how . To use that strategy
    to it's fullest potential takes ,"SKILL / experience / know how".
    If you do not possess that "SKILL"you are playing a guessing game.
    Granted there are some players who are devoid of
    even that level of skill , they are playing a
    GUESSING GAME
     
    #9
  10. James Hall, Sep 3, 2018

    James Hall

    James Hall Member

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    It takes experience and skill to make the
    correct decisions in those situations
     
    #10
  11. Edward-ky, Sep 3, 2018

    Edward-ky

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    I dont believe you are betting what the dice are giving you. You are betting across. Which if the dice were giving quite a few horn numbers you wouldnt then be betting what the dice were giving you.
     
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  12. James Hall, Sep 3, 2018

    James Hall

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    Also determination
    Exactly , and I guess what you are saying is many DIs
    are not doing that.
    That is a lot of the problem many do have.
    Even if they are producing numbers , many of them
    are many times not betting the correct betting strategy
    to capitalize on the numbers they are producing.
    I call that , "PLAYING TH WRONG GAME."
    I have heard many times over the years ,
    This guy or that , "was throwing the hell out of hard ways"
    The guy saying that wasn't on them because the
    HA is too high .
     
    #12
  13. James Hall, Sep 3, 2018

    James Hall

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    Lineaway sent me some information on his stuff
    and what I have seen sounds like it could help a bunch.
    I haven't gotten any of it because I work with some folks
    and I don't want to get into a situation where I get into his
    RICE BOWL.
    Here in Mesa before the guys go to Vegas , many times
    they will come over here and we work on that very thing.
    If they get on a table there or in Laughlin and outcomes are
    different they know how to , as you put it , Tweek the set
    or the strategy to take advantage of the numbers
    they are producing , I like to call that
    "PLAYING THE RIGHT GAME"
    Some of these guys here in Mesa have been coming
    to me here since September of 2013 for brush ups
    because thru practice their delivery is an almost
    continuous stage of evolution , the more time
    they spend with someone watching the more
    positive is the relults ,,,,,, SO FAR,,,,,,
    [/QUOTE]
    to be continued
     
    #13
  14. James Hall, Sep 3, 2018

    James Hall

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    I said on one of my early posts almost those exact words
    I said we go to Vegas 12 or more times per year
    and we do quite well,
    I was cautioned / threatened with expect , "PUSH BACK"
    I have received quite a lot.

    I use the standard sets with variations of each.
    I am not much of a proponent of the hard way set
    because I seem to get a lot of 7s with that one.
    I will use what I call the inline 6 if I have
    a 6 or 8 for a point and I want to make it.
    Generally I don't want to make the point I want
    to roll a lot of box numbers , making points slows
    down the game , draws too much attention and fills up the table.
    I throw the 2V and 3V most because I play
    the hard 6 and hard 8 most of the time ,
    some of my betting strategies are set up with those
    2 outcomes as my primary goal
    The bounce characteristic of some of the tables
    I play will produce hard 6 and hard 8 with the 3V
    while other tables will give me hard 6 and hard 8
    with the 2V, to get a hard 6 with that 2V the
    right die has to rotate once clock wise
    then flip once counter clockwise.

    My betting strategy starts me out with minimum
    pass line , if I play odds I play double odds.
    I will then go to those two hardways with won money
    I parlay wins the 6 or / and 8 three times then come
    down to one unit , I will generally have on or more
    numbers working for 5 hits then pull them down
    according to where I am in the game .
    At some point during this process I will have placed
    the dealers on the hard 6 and 8 and will
    have built them up to $5 on each of those two
    hard ways , I nearly always parlay whichever hits
    the second time , sometime for the sake of the dealers
    I will pull that hardway down at $500 to secure that
    for the dealers , I may or may not replace mine.
    There is much more to all this but time and space precludes
    a full explanation but this to some degree is how I play

    I have other strategies depending entirely
    on what is happening with my throw

    I rarely if ever bet on other players it is just too expensive
     
    #14
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  15. SevenOut, Sep 3, 2018

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    James & Rick. Both of you are on the DI side of the Spectrum.

    I do find the responses very informative and direct. An opportunity to actually understand how DI develops an older experienced player and one who has seen a pair of dice on a Monopoly Table at your table.

    When you teach Dice Setting and Delivery (DI). Do you require they understand the Dice Pyramid of 36 results, how odds are calculated on ALL Wagers on the Table, how to recognize Correct Odds to what the table Pays, Come, Place Bets, Pass, Don't Pass... etc. FIRST?

    Or give them a Dog and Pony Show (a Western Rancher''s terminology) first to get them interested and then make them EARN it?

    Once you offer Dice Sets, do you pair these with one or more particular Systems of Wagering?

    Either one of you may be the first to actually clear up some of the confusion among the well educated on Craps, that may have only passing understanding why a DI would play ALL Box Numbers and no High HA wagers in the 'Money Making' Center Table wagers.
     
    #15
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  16. superrick, Sep 3, 2018

    superrick

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    Nice SuperRick here, I've been called arrogant by a few well-meaning guys on this board in their minds. I'm truly sorry if you feel that way. But I will tell you one thing I've never called anybody arrogant because they knew more than I do. I've always told everybody that you can learn off of anybody if you just open your eyes and ears.


    I look at anybody as a learning tool even some that have been called special needs students when they were in school. I've defended them when they were called names and got the guys that were doing it to open their eyes to what they could be taught by special needs indivduals.
    Everybody has the ability to teach someone something without even trying. But you have to be willing to learn and on this board, some guys don't want to learn anything about craps! They will not even read a book on the game because as they put it craps are only about luck.


    I've been attacked for as they put it running off the great fiction writer Mp. That was because what he wrote was nothing but fiction. There wasn't one guy that ever met him on a real table. Although there was one dealer in Canada that said he had played craps with him and Mp wrote that they would meet and take road trips with him.


    The trouble was that when you put a timeline to what he was writing it couldn't happen.
    Now for this board along comes, James, a guy that you can meet and watch what he does will not take the time to see for himself.
    I drove over to James to see what I could learn from him and when the ACC was going on one of the guys that came to it stopped at James to see what he was all about.



    He thanked James for teaching him some stuff in the short time that he was there! When he came to the free class he talked about James and told everybody if they got the chance to meet up with him it would pay off for them!

    Anyone of you could meet me at a table here in Vegas. I've even met guys on my travels around the country. But it was always on my time and at a casino where I wanted to play.
    I've had guys lie about me that never met me and when I introduced myself to them after they wanted to meet me after I got done playing on a table that they just happen to be playing on. Their jaw dropped when they were talking about the different DI boards and asked if I posted on any of them when I told them what I posted under on the DI boards.



    I found out what they went by when posting and never confronted them about what they had been writing about me without ever meeting me! The look on their face was priceless when I told them who I was!

    You can come to any craps board with an open mind if you want to learn or like most on this board you can think that anyone that is trying to help you understand the game is your enemy! That will get you no where and it's your loss. The guy that you think is arrogant already knows about craps and was willing to help you out!


    This board is dying a slow death because you can get on it and it's not taking new members. Soon you will have no place to post about anybody that has tried to help you understand the game of craps! You can't learn anything from someone that says it's a negative game and you can only get lucky when you win playing it!

    Now, the Nice SuperRick will sit back and wait to be attacked once again, only to think wht a waste of time!
     
    #16
  17. James Hall, Sep 3, 2018

    James Hall

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    You talk like you know what I do.
    If you read my posts you will find that I have said
    on numerous occasions . I play a minimum pass line bet
    If I take odds , I take double odds , then I place $27 across
    depending on the point , which has me on the table at
    approximately $42. The dice are not giving
    me quite a few horn numbers so

    I AM IN FACT BETTING
    BETTING WHAT THE DICE
    ARE GIVING ME
    the box numbers
    and then of course that hard 6 and hard 8 pop up
    and baam the triple hard 6 or hard 8 has begun
    Nah I don't set to throw horn numbers so I don't bet them
    I bet what the dice give me and betting across
    gets me on the front end of a trend and I bet it till it ends
    I DID MENTION I AM A TREND PLAYER right?
    and I LLOOOOVVVE the center of the table
    that's where the real money abides,
    the hard 6 and hard 8 are lurking somewhere
    look for them there
     
    #17
  18. superrick, Sep 3, 2018

    superrick

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    Nice SuperRick here, James has said many times over that he will not take on a student unless they are comitted to put some time iton learning what he is willing to teach them and that includes how to bet the game to win!

    I stopped trying to teach anybody because what I taught them turned out to be told to others and when I took on the task of teaching them a few things it was with the undrestanding that they would not pass it on!
     
    #18
  19. James Hall, Sep 3, 2018

    James Hall

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    Actually I have had very few
    people come to me who were not totally familiar
    with this stuff , I have 2 people who
    were or are math teachers playing the game
    and quite skeptical with the probability of winning .
    Anyone who comes to me gets a workbook in
    which all this material is included ,
    we go over it at some length describing the
    difficulties that the 7 offers and why
    it / the 7 makes it so difficult to win
    in other words the occurrence of the 7 relative to
    all the other numbers , many of these people
    have never viewed a pair of dice set up with
    the all 7 set , seeing that blows them away , then when
    I shoe them the 3V set with sixes all around they comment
    that they had never seen this
    We go over that at length.

    Included in the workbook are charts of exactly
    what the odds verses what is paid etc.

    When someone expresses interest in coming here to work
    here is a process.
    First they will come here for a 1 hour introductory ,
    They usually take 2 hours or more. (I don't do groups).
    We talk at length about the game and why they are losing
    We talk a bit about betting strategy then we go thru
    a demonstration or two on how and why the betting strategies
    must match up with the numbers.
    They are handed a pay out sheet which lines out all
    the payouts on the bets .
    I throw dice , I have them pay my wins that they
    can see from the sheet which is also included in the workbook.
    At the end of the roll we calculate the win.
    during and after this process we answer
    questions.
    At the conclusion I send them home with the instruction
    to decide if or not they want to proceed with instruction.
    They are told , If they have further questions pleas call
    or come by.
    At that if they decide they would like
    to have me work with them they are told
    "I DO NOT DO SINGLE LESSONS"
    If you want me to work with you i can do so
    You must sign up for 6 one hour lessons
    which always take more than one hour .
    These lessons are scheduled one week apart
    and each person is required to come in at least once to practice
    before we proceed with another session.
    I will not , WILL NOT start anyone until they agree to
    the 6 week program , It is my firm belief that
    I CANNOT HELP ANYONE in one hour
    It's all 6 or none.
    Some of my guys started here in September
    of 2013 and I still see many of them on an ongoing basis
     
    #19
  20. James Hall, Sep 3, 2018

    James Hall

    James Hall Member

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    Let me just tell you what we do here.
    I have a number of guys that come here ,
    one of the things that has happened is some of these
    guys have hooked up , they have tables , there is
    a manufacturer just 10 miles from my house
    I took these guys there and they have bought tables
    They have been coming here we check
    their delivery , their outcomes and design a strategy
    that takes advantage of what their outcomes actually are.
    They practice on their table , they go to the
    other guys house , they come here ,
    they log all their numbers , we look at
    what has happened and tailored a strategy
    that would have worked in each of those
    different situations so if they see a trend unfolding
    they have a little better idea what to bet
    The old BET WHAT THE DICE ARE GIVING YOU thing
    W spend many many hours on such stuff.
    These guys practice together , they coach each other
    and the do well , They come here for the tune ups .
     
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