MINIMUM Bankroll for MAXIMUM WINNINGS

Discussion in 'Bankroll Management' started by SevenOut, Nov 24, 2014.

  1. SevenOut, Nov 24, 2014

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    What is the minimum Bankroll to begin at a Craps Table? I am offering two, $200 and a $2000 Bankrolls for my examples. IS $50 reasonable? $20? $200? $1000? What is the magic number to get through a cold spell or at the beginning of a big winning session? What System is to be used with the smaller $50 Bankroll? The $1000 Bankroll? THEY cannot be the same wagers... or are they?
    **********

    On another Thread, basicstrategy777, had brought up some interesting concepts as to Bankroll ranges and the reasonable opportunity to leave the Craps Table with winnings. Which is the purpose of this Thread's discussion.

    777 was focused on "Win Goals" and I was focused on "Winnings according to the Percentage of Bankroll".

    "Do you think a person with a large buy-in and low win goal.........has the same chance of winning, as a person with a small buy-in and a low win goal ? note: win goals are the same.
    777"

    These "Theories" are totally different in concept, but based on the probability of being at a Winning Craps Session. I am a firm believer in winnings according to the "Percentage to Bankroll" and 777 "Win Goals". I will do my best how I understand 777's concept and mine.

    I hope that 777 will expand upon his previous statements that were presented more as questioning my percentage to Bankroll concept, but until that happens I will try to interpret the Win Goal concept.

    Percentage to Bankroll:
    If a player has a $200 Bankroll A and another player has $2000 Bankroll B, neither have the same expectations of winning the SAME AMOUNT during a Session. My PtB, Percentage to Bankroll says that if Player A wins $100 and Player B wins $1000, they each won 50% to Bankroll. They would not necessarily be playing the same System of Play, but Player A is restricted to the size of wagers compared to Player B's Bankroll.

    My point is that for the Bankroll, both Player A and Player B have the same PtB.

    Win Goals:
    Player A and Player B both want to win $1000.

    Since Player B would be playing more $$$$ per wager, this player would most likely achieve a Win Goal of $1000, or 50% or .5X of his original Bankroll easier in a shorter amount of time at the table.

    Player A would have to win 500%, or 5X his bankroll and would be most likely in a very long Session with wagers in proportion to the $200 Bankroll (as in the $200 - $300 Full Monte System). The chances of the $200 Bankroll Player to have a Win Goal 5X, while the $2000 Bankroll Player would have a Win Goal of a reasonable 1/2X.

    One Win Goal is unrealistic. The other possible. The caveat is that the System being played, the wagers are in proportion to Bankroll and the Dice are running in both Players favor.

    I do agree with 777 that the higher Bankroll Player will be able to win a larger amount in a shorter period of time than Player A, the $200 Bankroll Player. This would be due to the larger wagers, IF the dice outcomes favor those wagers and Player B's Win Goal is $200 to quit... or has he placed a higher Win Goal of.... $5000. Which is possible, but unlikely.

    The Fallacy of a Win Goal Expectation:

    Player B wagers more per shooter. Player B can win more... but also can LOSE more on one shooter than Player A has in total Bankroll. Both are dependent on WINNING and not LOSING...

    A smaller Bankroll controls the maximum loss during a Session. Expecting a $100 win and quitting after the dice turn cold (according the System being used)... can be a decent Win Goal of $100 AND a 50% Winnings to Percentage of Bankroll. There is ONE VERY IMPORTANT CONCEPT OF THIS COMPARISON OF WINNING to consider:

    Win Goal is decided BEFORE one begins to play at a table. I want to win $500 tonight. I have $2000 to risk to go for that goal. (Obviously there is also a Bankroll LOSS in mind as well, so the Bankroll to Risk may be only $1000.)

    Percentage to Bankroll is decided DURING play at the table. When I get to $100, I will let the chips on the table play until they are lost OR the player may decide to pull all or part of these chips off the table. I have $200 to risk.

    I do hope that 777 chimes in. I am still uncertain as to his way to attack the Craps Table and how Win Goals are determined by a System or what?

    My Random Outcome $200 Bankroll is all you need IF you are winning. You play until you have winnings locked up and decide if and when to quit playing. As you win, your "Bankroll" increases... with the understanding your $200 Bankroll is part of this "larger Bankroll". As we all agree... there is NO limit to WINNING.... and the loss of your Bankroll is the most you can LOSE at any one time.

    I worked on this while eating Costco Broiled Chicken for dinner this evening. What do YOU think? Are there other options? These two concepts are VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND.

    Make you comments clear and as long as necessary. Do you have your own goal of winnings, predetermined or limited for one reason or another? Tear into my PtB or 777's WG. We all want to beat the Casino. Lets get to work.
     
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  2. KokomoJoe4, Nov 25, 2014

    KokomoJoe4

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    I think $200 is enough to weather at least a small storm. I almost always buy-in for $300, but with a lose half and quit mentality, I guess you could say my bankroll is $150.

    There are plenty of times this doesn't last very long. Does 5 minutes sound familiar to anyone else? Granted I can usually play for 30 min or so even when losing, but sometimes it goes very quickly.

    I am willing to let the wins go as high as they will go. I will always progress heavily when winning with a single bet, and will always play until I see a loser.

    This sort of a "method" ensures you will not be in the casino for any great length of time. Perfect for my needs, but I understand that many people visit the casino less frequently and want to play for a length of time. To each his own.
     
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  3. basicstrategy777, Nov 25, 2014

    basicstrategy777

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    Your method of play is dictated by your goal. Lenght at the table you play one way....maximum money in a short period of time you play another way.

    I believe you should have a battle plan in your mind as to how you are going to play before you enter the casino. This includes how much money you are going to bring, how big your session stakes are to be, how you are going to play, how much you want to win ( win goal ) , how much is the maximum you want to lose, plus, plus.

    If what you are doing is not working you must change something. Something.

    It is not complicated. It is not novel. Have a plan....have win goals and loss limits...
    be flexible....have your rules and obey your rules.....play in a way that is fun for you.

    My only point in previous posts was the more money you bring to the table the better the chance you have to win and meet your win goal, especially if it is not too ambitious. This doesn't mean you will win, it just gives you a better chance.

    Some win goals are easier to achieve than others. The lower the goal the easier it is to achieve it.

    This isn't rocket science. There is no system, there is no money management technique, there is nothing you can do to get an edge on the game.

    Percentages, win goals, are not going to do it for you and in the grand scheme of things don't amount to a hill of beans.

    All you can do is play in such a way as to give the casino the smallest edge possible, develope a way to play that is enjoyable to you, be disciplined, have an idea of what you want to accomplish, and don't let the greed gene get you.

    Oh....and be lucky.

    777
     
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  4. The Midnight Skulker, Nov 26, 2014

    The Midnight Skulker

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    In a word, the one that I have emphasized, play to maximize your utility. There is no one way to play that is optimal for everybody.

    You may recall that in The Before Time lower case alan (aka MoneyLA) twice asked for advice on how to use a $500 promo chip -- or was it two? -- for maximum effect. On both occasions posters presented strategies that guaranteed a profit, and on both occasions alan chose a different strategy and ended up with zip. Of course his reports received a cacophony of cat calls, IMHO primarily because of his absurd views on other aspects of the game, but I defended the way he played the promo chips using the concept of utility: the amount he had a chance to win betting as he did was of greater value to him than the amount he was guaranteed to win betting as we told him to.
     
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  5. tercol58, Dec 6, 2014

    tercol58

    tercol58 Member

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    This is my downfall I do not obey my loss quit rule
     
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  6. SevenOut, Aug 15, 2015

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    Bankroll? What is an appropriate bankroll? Should I ask... why should that matter to you? If you do not know, you should not even play Craps. I do not know you, your circumstances or if your wife is going to kick your butt for losing the car payment at a Craps game.

    How much can you afford to LOSE at one game session? That is your Bankroll.

    Having a Higher or Lower Bankroll does not guarantee you to win more or less. The more you want to risk when the dice are not rolling your way... the more you lost.

    There are many Schools of Thought concerning Bankroll and hanging in there until the game turns in your favor. What if it does not turn in your favor after you lost your bankroll and foolishly, begin throwing out C Notes for "change". The dealers see a loser. Sometime, stand at a $10 or $25 table and watch.

    The Casino Bank has thousands of dollars in chips ready for the picking, but you have to wager to even win the loses from players from previous short sessions. The Casino Bank never runs out of chips. YOUR bank is finite. Think about it.

    Then manage a bankroll that gives you the best opportunity to beat the table at their own game. If you are winning... the bankroll is long forgotten. Chances are... you are not winning, will not win that day nor had you all the money in the world... still lose it all. Bankroll limits your LOSSES, not your WINNINGS.
     
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  7. KokomoJoe4, Aug 22, 2015

    KokomoJoe4

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    The "best" (meaning only the safest) way to win something like 500% (5x) your starting bankroll involves: (1) being fortunate enough to get ahead by enough money to (2) begin placing LARGER wagers and hitting them (3) in succession, as the wager is made larger and larger as the hits continue.

    The idea is to NOT use incoming funds with the big wagers. Wait until you have some graft from the bank. Bet these funds however you want to, it's now your money. Personally, I prefer ONE large as possible wager, rather than a number of smaller ones that add up to the same total at risk. Why? Because IF the one big wager hits, it pays a hell of a lot more.

    Depending on how far ahead I am, the percentage of my winnings at risk will differ. In other words, I might be up $100 at the start. Here I'd be risking most or all of the winnings. If I'm up 2K, the next bet would be risking maybe $900 of this. Worst losing I saw was -$4400 sitting to win $6400 when ahead by about $10500.

    When playing with aggressive progression, I like to keep the number of bets in action to ONE. It's easier to keep track of, and easier to win, even though it really isn't easy because its gambling. You have to take advantage of stop loss if/when it will help you hold onto your winnings.

    For example, I will stop my progression, or at least regress it, when on a come out craps loser. At least the loser prevented the loss of big odds.
     
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  8. tabletop123, Aug 22, 2015

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Yeah, most people say They'd NEVER Lay odds on their Don't Pass, or Don't Come Bet. They say it makes no sense to Lay Odds, because You're Betting MORE to win less. Then they turn right around and say: Dealer, give me all the Numbers for $360 Across, Because I'm NOT betting more to Win Less. An "Einstein" born every Day, Huh?
     
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  9. SevenOut, Aug 23, 2015

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    The majority of Craps Players are creatures of... habit.

    They play the game that is found most comfortable. Yes YOU. I DO, so do not have a pass on this. But, my game is the best PASS System I have come up with. When I lose, I do question why do I play such an aggressive game with a $200 Bankroll.

    Well... when your are winning... Bankroll is no longer important.

    When you are LOSING... Bankroll can keep you at the table in the hope that the game turns in your favor. It is also the Loss Limit for that Session.

    We all agree that You maximize your wins AND minimize your losses. I can have MORE than my original Bankroll on the table when making $1000 in my chip rack and the rest is working for me. When the Seven Out shows... which it will, I regret the loss of $180 or more left on the table, but it was not my Bankroll exposed to the whims of the dice.

    My game is simple. I play to Win. I will quit when I am content with my winnings, which some times I hang in for more winnings and other times color up with a $25 win and content. The last time I won more than $1500 at a Craps Table was close to thirty years ago. I might have lost $4,000 over the years to WIN... $1500. A net loss overall, but my Bankroll was $500 a game, then. My System... what System? I had no clue what I was doing.

    Laying Odds on the Don't is actually a smart wager. Much the same as the Odds on the Pass Line. The Don't wagers have the mathematical advantage. Even I do not want to risk MORE to win LESS, being a greedy bastard. Even though the math says the Don't players have the edge... few want to expose MORE to win LESS.

    Anyone who claims to win all of the time. Ignore their posts. I have yet met anyone who made their wealth shooting Craps at a Casino. I lose my bankroll much to often, but catch a hot game and get back into the "black". Now I am in the hole, but will be catching a game in a few days.

    Same System. Same Money Management... but looking forward to the dice favoring my numbers every time I play. I am optimistic until my last chip is lost at the table. This time the dice beat me. Next time... maybe it WILL be my turn to beat the table with their own money maker... .750" Dice.

    You create your own LUCK from experience at the tables. You paid for it, regularly. Smart PLAY = LUCK.

    Occasionally you will hit the Table's Bank hard and leave with it in your pockets... until the next time... where the table waits patiently for you to squander the earlier winnings. A professional gambler is guaranteed one thing... to die broke, but enjoyed getting there, writes one or more books about those mythical winners and gets a whole new group of Newbies anxious to make their... fortune. The Newbies, later to die broke and then regret they can not put two paragraphs together, so cannot write a... book of their misadventures. Writing a BOOK on gambling is the money maker for ALL professional gamblers. ALL.

    So, play smart and lock up some winnings when possible. The Craps Table misses your smiling face and... your fresh Bankroll.
     
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  10. KokomoJoe4, Aug 23, 2015

    KokomoJoe4

    KokomoJoe4 Member

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    s app

    Bingo. They are the BEST bet on the table and a favorite EVERY time. Possibly why you need to give the true odds to the house when you lay them.
     
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