New to craps with a passline question

Discussion in 'General Craps Discussion' started by Nate, Jan 11, 2019.


  1. Nate

    Nate Member

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    I understand how the betting works, but I am still new to craps. I was originally taught to pay the inside 22 with the passline and max odds. I was recently at the casino and a guy who was making a crazy amount of money with 500 dollar placed bets told me that the passline is a wasted bet and to take the money I was playing on the line and place it on the set point. I started to do that and the payouts were much better and I had the option of pulling my money at any time. Why do people bother with the passline, other than if they are the shooter? Seems like it's a better option to just wait for the point to be set and place a bet on said set point. Let me know what your thoughts are.
     
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  2. HornHighBLEVE, Jan 11, 2019

    HornHighBLEVE

    HornHighBLEVE Member

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    Welcome Nate, If you're rolling the dice you HAVE to make a pass line bet. This contract bet stays up until the point is made or a 7 is rolled.

    Sure there are many players that prefer 'placing' bets...and I would be one of them.

    I suppose if your determined to stick it out on a choppy table a minimum pass line/come bet could insure you're there if the tables gets hot...

    ...that way you would be only risking 5 instead of 22.

    It's just a preference after all you're gambling.
     
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  3. TDVegas, Jan 11, 2019

    TDVegas

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    You're going to miss out on a lot (and I don't say that lightly) come out winner 7-11's on the pass line. There is good reason why that wagers house edge is so low. That's it. 1.41%. A buy 5/9 is.....what.....4.00%. Pretty steep differential.

    There is no other wager in the casino (for that one roll) that provides a player edge of 2 to 1 win/loss advantage. Not even close.

    There's nothing wrong with skipping the pass line bet....you won't get the dice. You can simply make place/buy bets which, yes, can be removed or moved.

    Pass line wager can be a very powerful bet. Maybe even more powerful with parlay wins.
     
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  4. James Hall, Jan 11, 2019

    James Hall

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    Nate
    Many people will play the pass line for $5 then place $10 odds total $15
    I would suggest taking a look at adding 2 more dollars total $17
    and instead of playing the pass line
    place 3 numbers say the 5 for $5 , the 6 for $6 and the 8 for $6 total $17
    That way you have two of the numbers you hope the pass line toss will
    choose and one other.
    For $17 dollars instead of $15 you have three numbers
    working instead of one and you can remove all three if that little voice says
    "Nate , the 7" I have found that to work quite well.
    For almost the same amount of money I have
    three times more numbers working for me.
    I play the pass line only when I have the dice.
     
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  5. eagleeye2, Jan 11, 2019

    eagleeye2

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    TDV, More BS from YOU!!!

    Your comment, i.e. ""There is no other wager in the casino (for that one roll) that provides a player edge of 2 to 1 win/loss advantage. Not even close"" ~ is 100% WRONG!!!

    The Player ""Advantage"", on the ""Come Out Roll"", is only 8/36, with a NET LOSS of -1.41%,for all bets, as shown below courtsey of Wizard of Vegas.com.

    Pass/Come
    The probability of winning on the come out roll is pr(7)+pr(11) = 6/36 + 2/36 = 8/36.

    The probability of establishing a point and then winning is pr(4)×pr(4 before 7) + pr(5)×pr(5 before 7) + pr(6)×pr(6 before 7) + pr(8)×pr(8 before 7) + pr(9)×pr(9 before 7) + pr(10)×pr(10 before 7) =

    (3/36)×(3/9) + (4/36)×(4/10) + (5/36)×(5/11) + (5/36)×(5/11) + (4/36)×(4/10) + (3/36)×(3/9) =
    (2/36) × (9/9 + 16/10 + 25/11) =
    (2/36) × (990/990 + 1584/990 + 2250/990) =
    (2/36) × (4824/990) = 9648/35640
    The overall probability of winning is 8/36 + 9648/35640 = 17568/35640 = 244/495
    The probability of losing is obviously 1-(244/495) = 251/495
    The player's edge is thus (244/495)×(+1) + (251/495)×(-1) = -7/495 ≈ -1.414%.

    There you have the TRUE FACTS, NOT BS from someone that thinks they know it all!!!

    eagleeye2
     
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  6. Mssthis1, Jan 11, 2019

    Mssthis1

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    During a comeout roll the pass line has a 2/1 advantage, 8 way to win 4 ways to lose. After the comeout roll it is a contract bet that is at a disadvantage the remainder of the roll. Both scenarios combined equal the house edge of approx 1.41%.

    On the flip side the Don't pass bet is a 3 to 8 dog on the comeout roll. After the comeout roll it is at an advantage no matter what number is set for a combined HA of approx 1.39%

    Why is that so hard to grasp?

    For those who feel the pass line or come is a bad bet because you have to toss the same number twice to win if a point is set, I say you should make Don't pass and or don't come bets where the same number has to be tossed twice to lose AND you can take your bet down anytime you wish except for the don't pass bet if you're shooting?. Isn't that the best of both worlds?
     
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  7. MisterInside, Jan 11, 2019

    MisterInside

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    Hi, Nate. If you are a right way bettor, the best bet in a casino is a pass line bet and taking the maximum odds which vary by casino, typically between 2x and 10x. Some casinos advertise 100x odds but I've never seen a $5 pass line bettor, take $500 odds. Eagleeye2 is exactly correct. You can, however, do slightly better (1.402%) by playing the don't and betting the maximum odds against the point. You will seldom see anybody playing this way and you will be unpopular at the table if you do so.

    A smart and sensible method is to play the 6 and 8 only. Only a 1.52% house advantage.
    Another goody is to 'buy' the 4/10 ONLY IF the casino collects the 5% vig on a win for
    you. Not many casinos play this way, so check. That's a 1.67% bet. Avoid hardways, 'one roll bets' and the other exotics.

    The single best piece of advice that I can give to you is to quit while you're ahead.

    There are lots of great books out there. The best that I have read is John Scarne's "Complete Guide to Casino Gambling."
     
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  8. eagleeye2, Jan 11, 2019

    eagleeye2

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    Come On Now Mssthis1,

    What happened to the other 24 Combinations of the DICE, since you only considered (12) of the (36) posibilities??

    Dam, you & TDV cannot simply Ignore those 24 Combinations, like in your post above???

    Bottom Line, The NET of all Pass / Come Bets is a - 1.41%, period!!!

    eagleeye2
     
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  9. TDVegas, Jan 11, 2019

    TDVegas

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    I said on come out roll you have a 2 to 1 win/loss advantage on that one roll. That is correct. 8 ways to win, 4 ways to lose.

    The 24 other possibilities send the bet to stage 2.
     
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  10. basicstrategy777, Jan 11, 2019

    basicstrategy777

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    Note:....you can remove ANY don't bet at any time including the DPL bet, even if you are the shooter..........the problem is the rules state you must have a bet on the PL or DPL as the shooter.....so if you remove the DPL bet as the shooter, you must make a bet on the PL, which cannot be removed when made...

    777
     
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  11. Mssthis1, Jan 11, 2019

    Mssthis1

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    A delayed decision which is now dependent on the outcome of future rolls.



    It was clearly stated that the advantage is only on the comeout roll or rolls.


    Which is better than any place or buy bet.


    In the end, just do whatever gives you the most enjoyment for your time. Only thing I can say is don't risk money you can't afford to lose or you may end up living in a camper in someones driveway.
     
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  12. Mssthis1, Jan 11, 2019

    Mssthis1

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    That is true.

    I'm thinking about inventing a new craps game where you don't have to have a Pass line or Don't pass line bet to shoot. Instead you must have table minimum action somewhere on the layout every roll to keep the dice.

    I think it will be a winner.
     
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  13. eagleeye2, Jan 11, 2019

    eagleeye2

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    TDV,

    So..., You insinuated a 2 to1 advantage, when it is only 8/36 & you CANNOT take that BET down, resulting in an OVERALL - 1.41% FOR THAT BET.

    Yes, that CASINO advantage remains, unless one can SOMEHOW CONTROL THE DICE A BIT, which you maintain is impossible!

    eagleeye2
     
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  14. von duck, Jan 11, 2019

    von duck

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    "Powerful bet" :D
     
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  15. TDVegas, Jan 11, 2019

    TDVegas

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    Insinuated? No. I said it straight out. It IS a 2 to 1 win/loss advantage on come out.
     
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  16. lone irish digit, Jan 11, 2019

    lone irish digit

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    This is Barney,

    The LID was at casino yesterday and he was watching crowded table. One shooter caught his eye who was not dice setter but had nice smooth toss and he started out with a $10 pass line bet. He threw 6 straight sevens which he had parlayed the $10 bet to $740. He went back to a $10 pass line bet and threw another seven. Seven for seven how abouts that. On 8th toss he finally got a point and played the come bet/odds strategy where he hit bunch of repeaters for a nice score and about 3 points. The LID usually plays place bets over come bets but you never know. Nonetheless, the LID would have made a lots of monies betting on this shooter but he had his tuha.
     
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  17. The Midnight Skulker, Jan 11, 2019

    The Midnight Skulker

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    I bet one unit Pass; you wait for a point to be established before making a bet. Point becomes 8.

    I take five units odds; you place 8 for six units. Who gets paid more if the point makes? Who loses less if the point misses?

    The answer, of course, is that once a point of 8 is established we will both win seven units if it makes and lose six units if it misses...but there is still a difference in our strategies. I had an opportunity to win one unit on a roll on which I enjoyed a 2:1 advantage over the house; you had no such opportunity. Hence, over the course of many decisions, my strategy is expected to outperform yours when the point is 8 OR my bet is decided on the comeout roll.

    Similarly, my strategy is expected to outperform yours regardless of what point, if any, is established. I will leave it to you to verify that statement using bets totaling five units on the outside points and six units on the 6.

    House advantage (i.e. expected profit/loss over a large number of decisions) is only one criterion for comparing strategies. Another major difference between Pass/Come and Place/Buy bets, and one frequently cited by advocates of the latter, is that the former are contract bets; once they establish a point they must remain in action until resolved (i.e. cannot be reduced, turned off, or taken down). If retaining complete control is important to a player then that player will prefer Place/Buy bets.

    Another advantage offered by Place/Buy bets is the ability to choose which number(s) you bet on rather than having to live with the number the dice choose for you. This is of particular importance to players, called DIs, who have an ability, real or imagined, to exert some influence over the dice to produce biased (non-random) results.

    Finally, Place/Buy bets permit a player to get into a position of being the favorite to win a bet quickly by placing/buying multiple numbers. For example, the 22 Inside bet your "mentor" suggested covers four numbers and makes you a 3:1 favorite to win $7 (i.e. one of the four bets that comprise "22 inside"). The catch -- dare I say 22? -- of course is that when you lose, you lose all four bets ($22) simultaneously. Nevertheless, this strategy can be extended to give you the best of both worlds by making Come bets as well, and coming down with odds when the Come bet gets a point you had a Place/Buy bet on. Then if the Come bet wins you go down and back with a Place/Buy bet.

    Ya bets yer money and ya takes yer pick.
     
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  18. DeMango, Jan 11, 2019

    DeMango

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    Must of been a cold night in the car. Harley is not reading too well today.
     
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  19. James Hall, Jan 11, 2019

    James Hall

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    Harley is not reading at all.
     
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  20. lone irish digit, Jan 11, 2019

    lone irish digit

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    Das ist Herr Max Planck,

    Ich habe den größten Barney-Post darüber gelesen, was der LID gestern beim Craps-Tisch gesehen hat. Wenn ich die Mathematik in meinem Kopf mache, würde ich sagen, dass die Wahrscheinlichkeit von sieben Sieben in Folge ungefähr 1 von 280.000 ist. Die Ziege aß meinen abfälligen Abakus oder ich würde die genaueste Zahl angeben.
     
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