Perfect Dice... WHAT is needed?

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by SevenOut, Nov 17, 2016.

  1. SevenOut, Nov 17, 2016

    SevenOut

    SevenOut Member

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    I have handled about one thousand .750" dice in the last week. Not the best use of my time, for sure. Although I have a purpose and in the process have sorted out some dice that specific Casino's ask for Security Options. It is not my place to explain every detail, but at least three Security details are available in your personal dice collection.

    If you do not have a collection or Casino grade dice... it would be a good idea to at least work with them.

    What would make you secure in the use of the dice used at any Casino Craps Table?

    For the Dice Bias individuals... I can visualize that the volume of pip coloring be equal on all sides of a die.

    Six - Ace: The six pips and the one pip enlarged to the volume of the six pips.
    Five-Two: The same...
    Four-Three: The same...

    Or... by the dice manufacture's making the 'illusion of non-bias' does it give the appearance that ALL dice were biased and the Casino's are admitting guilt in the process?

    No matter how this works out... the active minds will find something. What is your... something?
     
    #1
  2. Onautopilot, Nov 17, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    MY something is that the dice, for the most part, act as adequate random number generators. Even if there are small differences or imperfections, they tend to do the job they were designed for.

    The best I can do is physically check the dice, or make observations, which I do.

    If I have suspicions, I act on those suspicions in one of two ways.....I either attempt to exploit what I suspect, or leave the scene.

    But 95% or more of the time, I accept the dice as adequate random number generators, and play accordingly.
     
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  3. twodicebilly, Nov 18, 2016

    twodicebilly

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    I think over-all the dice are much worse than they used to be. I see more evenings when
    the sevens are almost all 6/1....... much more often than 5/2 or 3/4 ...now for the math guys
    that suggest your SRR has to be perfectly stated... they should also indicate that there should
    be a reasonable division of sevens.

    Last night there was an equal division of sevens and after a coupled small adjustments I had a
    very profitable evening with rolls of 3,4,6,6, 7,11,12,12,12,1,18.26.33,16, 4

    I don't get all flustered about the dice because to be honest I cant do a damn thing about it. I
    only have such a few options here, I play or I don't play.I know it sounds dumb, but I actually
    enjoy having to make set adjustments to get the best reaction I can get on the table. Beating
    the table, regardless what amount that win is fun.

    So my something is not money.... it is beating what ever conditions I find at the table.

    twodicebilly
     
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  4. Onautopilot, Nov 18, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    And I think that is what all of us want to do, in what ever way best aligns with our playing strategy!

    Congrats on a nice session at the table.
     
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  5. Onautopilot, Nov 18, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    Yes, any statistical analysis, performed to evaluate a DI's skill, is always based on the assumption the dice are "fair" to the extent that they adequately serve as random number generators. That analysis is trying to determine what, if any, bias might have been introduced by the DI.

    If a bias exists, and is known, one can adjust the analysis to reflect the bias, but I have no idea how one would know the exact bias. So we either assume the dice are fair, and perform the analysis based on that assumption, or we "guess" that something is amiss, and speculate....which really gives us no useful information.

    I can understand a DI's dilemma with a suspected bias in the dice, while at the same time they were trying to introduce their own bias
     
    #5
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  6. SevenOut, Nov 18, 2016

    SevenOut

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    .... and Casino dice ARE random number... generators.

    Even the smaller nitrates used at Nevada Casinos and Speakeasies of the Underworld sponsored gaming... were random number generators. Always.

    Imagine back in the pre-corporate Casino days if a dice manufacturer produced Biased Dice to the... 'investors' that did not require laws or lawyers to keep 'fair dice'. A few fingers missing would convince a supplier to be... also fair and produce random outcome dice.

    Anyone who thinks Indian Casino dice are made 'special' for them for nonrandom outcomes... do not go to an Indian Casino. If the outcomes are not random, someone with more intelligence than a one cent slot player will clean up altering their System to mirror the outcomes.

    So far on one of my threads... no one has even bothered to investigate some options I offered to check 'dice bias'. Why? Because it would totally refute their excuses for losing at Craps.

    Want a sure thing? Get a second job.
     
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  7. SevenOut, Nov 18, 2016

    SevenOut

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    OAP's post #5... for those of you who need glasses and have a poor memory... READ post #5 and #6 a second time.

    Two members who have Dealt Craps and just might have a good idea how both sides of the table operate.
     
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  8. twodicebilly, Nov 18, 2016

    twodicebilly

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    The problem with addressing a bias is that the table contains 5 different dice
    and there for there are a number of combinations.
    Any adjustment that works for one two dice combination may not work for all
    dice combinations.

    I like to play alone and if I have a real nice roll, I just say hey don't bother dumping
    the bowl, just give me the same two.....

    twodicebilly
     
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  9. Onautopilot, Nov 18, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    LOL
     
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  10. SevenOut, Nov 18, 2016

    SevenOut

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    OAP#9.... stay retired and get a dog.
     
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  11. Onautopilot, Nov 18, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    And if I were a DI, that is exactly what I would request also.

    There have been a multitude of threads, addressing the bias dice issue....different combinations of various biases, the probabilities associated with those biases, and on and on. I have no desire to re-visit all of those discussions. :)

    For the most part, I assume I am playing a fair game when I elect to play. That does not mean I am not vigilant to the possibility of a bias, whether introduced by intent, or by accident.

    If by observation I suspect something is amiss, I try and validate my suspicions. That validation is extremely limited.....to a quick physical inspection of the dice. Beyond that, it is all speculation, and suspicion, and I act on that accordingly.

    In the end, a DI is faced with many, and varied challenges....as is all the other craps players. :)

    Good luck!
     
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  12. Onautopilot, Nov 18, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    But the "quest" is my passion , and to not pursue the elusive, and improbable reward, is beyond my control. :)
     
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  13. SevenOut, Nov 18, 2016

    SevenOut

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    Just one exception to the Bias and unBiased die.

    When the Boxman examines an errant die that a DI or Die Chucker bounces off the table... he checks for security AND if the die was damaged in the process. A corner chipped... could make the die biased.

    The casino floor is most likely carpeted.
    The Boxman will ask you not to hit the mirror on the front side of the Craps Table.
    The tossing the dice as if you are pitching for the Chicago Cubs will get you tossed out.

    When 40% or more of posted conversations are pissing contests between two individuals, 50% concerning equipment failures in the Dice Cup and the last 10% on System Play... a test should be given to test the knowledge of each CrapsForum member as to qualifications to even post.

    Those I will be meeting in the future are welcome to browse my Casino Dealer Manuals.

    No mention of anything on this Forum. Only... Take, Pay, Place and Casino Procedure, protecting the dice and table from cheats.

    Routine repeating makes one an expert.

    Same with being a Player. Develop a System that has a DIRECT relationship to your Bankroll and use it, develop it when you are losing or when you are winning... make changes as the chips flow in and out of your chip rack.

    But the rest... it is just rubbing salt into your eyes and complaining you cannot see.
     
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  14. driglaz, Nov 19, 2016

    driglaz

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    you may never win again if you keep chasing bias dice theories.
     
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  15. SevenOut, Dec 14, 2016

    SevenOut

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    I have had the unfortunate pleasure to handle three thousand or more dice, that were in the process of being Casino hot stamped. Each Casino may have a preference in dimension, security pips, lettering behind pips, fluorescent pip/pips, razor edge or not, serial numbered, bird's eye pip, ring eye pip, flush spots (the majority in the USA), and SIZE.

    Each hand made from acetate. This material in a carton is very heavy! Finished dice by the thousand is very heavy. Maybe in the future the 'hand made die' will be replaced with a computer manufactured die that is absolutely perfect, yet someone will find something to create... bias.

    These went from 5/8" to 3/4" and everything in between. You can size up pairs that fit into a stick of five, but it does not necessarily mean you can take these and size into the next stick of five dies. After awhile, your eye can see the .025" difference. Your fingers can confirm it with a known sized die. Dice seem to be sized in inches versus metric dimensions in the USA. There is only a preference of a cube dimensions for reading the outcome pips and those that play at the Craps Tables. The 3/4" / 19mm seems to be the most popular, but the Casino may vary the dimensions at a whim.

    But, back to my point about DICE BIAS not having any possibility to affect die outcomes by individual die weight, shape, size, finish or pip diameters.

    Dice Bias does not exist. I can dispute EVERY example of the most common excuses for your entertainment and my... suffering the stacking, sizing and comparing hundreds of die sets and even... errors.

    - The die cube is not biased towards any outcome. A dice cube is made and the pips added afterwards. The pips were so thin, not even to be a consideration of creating a die bias.

    - IF the cube is biased, the pips are added afterwards and one die and the next have NO common die bias to prefer one outcome over another. This is assuming that the cubes and finished product have any bias in the process, at all.

    - Many drilled pips after sizing and the final die surface are so thin that they appear to be painted onto the surface. Some can be polished off the cube if not carefully prepared. I have plenty of examples of culls that were rejected and not deemed usable, unless resized, pips redrilled and the finishing process started over. (A 3/4" could end up as a smaller die to keep costs down.)

    - Yes. Spin a die. It is the cube that is biased. Not the pips. Find an axis that is biased. Try another and it is not. Unless you are at a table with equipment to test each die before selecting two from a group of five... Good Luck.

    - Weight variances. So what? Tell me how that affects the bias 'outcome'?

    - Is a small die more biased than the larger dice? Physics probably would consider the larger die less likely to exhibit any bias to any upward face.

    Do not confuse Toy Dice with Casino Dice. The so called Math People have used toy dice on some of their important research and did not know the difference.

    Used Dice are no more biased than Unused Dice. The Casino removes worn dice if one or more are damaged during play and replaced. I have yet to have held an obviously damaged die, ever. Even then... how would anyone know the die's preference and bias? No body at all. Consider it a random die outcome.
     
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  16. SevenOut, Dec 15, 2016

    SevenOut

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    Next Fall 2017 I will bring some of my 'unfinished dice' for any Dice Bias curious individuals to Las Vegas. Please bring some equipment to test, as all I have is a gram scale.

    I will bring from one source of die manufacturing:

    -Drilled pip cubes that have not been filled as rough cubes.
    -Polished not drilled cubes without pips.
    -Unpolished not drilled cubes without pips.
    -The dice given out by a Dice Manufacturer that are hot stamped 'Perfect Dice'.
    -Dice where the pip count should be six and is a five pip or two four's on a die and similar mis-pipped dice that obviously did not pass the inspector to have a Casino hot stamp logo.
    - Dice where a .775" was taken down to the .750" and the pips are so thin you can see the colored acetate through them.

    We can run through Pai Gow mini dice with the large one pip... and other less than .750" finished cubes with Casino Logos. I will swap for Dice I do not have a pair for my collection. This could examine if the larger or smaller dice are more prone to being... biased.

    I have several hundred pairs of finished dice that are unused, with Casino hot stamps from around the world, Indian Casinos, United Kingdom, including some Atlantic City undrilled cubes.

    WHO wants to sit down with me and give this opportunity to play around with this stuff and make some sense of... Dice Bias, once and for all.

    IF we can determine ANY Bias, if existing, is from the unfinished cube... before having pips... then the Bias is Random. Then make them public on this Forum.

    If we can examine the depth of a drilled filled pip and find no Bias, then another step forward.

    If we can examine a drilled unfinished cube, unfilled pips... and cannot find a Bias, the entire Dice Bias discussion is finished. You and I would probably agree that a cube with all pips drilled and unfilled BETTER show Bias. If not... then this will be the stake in the Dice Bias corpse.

    I will not pre-judge what any of the results may show. Three to four experienced Craps Players would be just perfect. We all may learn something.
     
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  17. TDVegas, Dec 15, 2016

    TDVegas

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    Excellent, SevenOut...and a very generous offer for those who believe bias dice are screwing with the game.
     
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  18. Onautopilot, Dec 16, 2016

    Onautopilot

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    There is no such animal as a "perfectly" square cube, and there is no such animal as a "perfectly" balanced cube.....at least none made by man.

    The only way to ascertain the "perfectness" of a pair of dice, would be to throw an infinite number of rolls, and have a "perfect" distribution".....an impossibility!

    On the other hand, miniscule flaws in man made dice would require almost the same criteria to ascertain a bias, and what that bias might be......a virtual impossibility.

    On the other hand, an evident bias, either uneven face dimensions, or uneven weight distributions, would require less trials to establish the bias, and what that bias resulted in. The percent of bias being the determining factor in the required sample size.......easily done with the right sample size, and the proper statistical analysis.

    On the other hand, to establish a known bias, and what that bias resulted in, by observation at a live table, the bias would have to be so pronounced as to be evident by most any casual observer.......not happening!

    On the other hand, a suspected bias by an astute observer, is probably the result of nothing more than the variance one would expect with even "perfect" dice.......the human brain is wired to find "patterns" in random where none exist.

    On the other hand, if one suspects a bias based on observation, acting on that observation is not really an irrational decision.......leave, or bet the suspected bias, no harm no foul if one does not bet beyond their normal wagering plan strictly based on that suspected bias.

    I have more thoughts on the bias dice conspiracy.....but I have run out of hands!
     
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  19. SevenOut, Dec 16, 2016

    SevenOut

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    Post on Facebook any of these 'Headlines' for their Fact Checking News test.

    Post on Facebook anything concerning Dice Setting.

    Post on Facebook anything concerning Dice Influencing.

    I have not looked on Facebook for any Craps topics, but maybe they already exist. But... let the small army of Fact Checkers go to work and sit back.

    One aspect of the lack of Dice Bias does favor Dice Setting. How can one set a pair of dice with 'biased dice'? You cannot. Although a Dice Setter would say they would analyze the dice outcomes and figure out the bias... and make the changes needed. An expensive hit and miss and being able to ignore random outcomes of perfect dice as being biased.

    Well........ that could be a stretch recording outcomes that have no preference of outcomes. Even to believe one of the two dice can be more likely cooperate, than another is also nonsense.

    Most if not all Dice Setters, Dice Influencing, Dice Bias, et al... avoid discussing the physical aspects of a acetate DIE. That is a critical part of the entire system. Not understanding the 'source of dice outcomes' is the inability to even put a solid understanding on how to proceed onto these areas discussed with so much passion that one side or the other appear... deranged, to make insane.

    This is taking Theory and applying the 'real world' to the 'theoretical world' for results.

    Having a 'bad day at the tables' is not an excuse.

    Having a 'good day' may be due to random positive returns to a viable System of Wagering.

    Check off one Pro and Con at a time and what is left over is... probably not going to make everyone happy.

    My next Thread will explain how I can promote a System and the Casino will record my buy in and cash out to... Prove my System or Dice Setting pays.
     
    #19
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  20. SevenOut, Dec 16, 2016

    SevenOut

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    Well... forget a Thread to explain my last paragraph in Post #19.

    Anyone can pull this one off and use it as... EVIDENCE... that they leave as a winner every time.

    - Pocket ten $25 chips, or five $100 chips from a previous buy in of a friend or yourself without tossing your 'Player's Card' to register this buy in. More if you want to WIN more...

    - Buy in at a Craps Table and stand there and let the dice pass until you get to shoot, or walk up just a position or two ahead of the current shooter. You want to establish a time at the table.

    - While playing minimums and losing or winning, the dice pass to the next player and so on.

    - When the dice come around the table, you slip out the pocketed chips and color out. The end dealer makes the count, the Pit Boss or Boxman enters it into the computer at the table or Pit Boss's kiosk computer.

    - You won... (fill in the blank) during that 'session of play'. It can be recovered, I have heard on this Forum, in printed form as your evidence. Do it five times and you are making $2500 a week playing.

    This is why trusting numbers from anyone is very skeptical to believe, if not present. That is why I question everything... even my own understanding on why I won or lost during a session at a Craps Table.

    The risk is that you are pegged Money Laundering and offered up to the Gaming Commission as a suspect for 'further watching'. It is a slippery slope even for a legitimate winner and the scammer winner for evidence. Who to believe.

    When there is a 'profit motive', there are ways to present evidence. Even for small stakes or the Bernie Madoff big time scams. Craigslist is full of scammers and the gullible are buying on trust... and getting a $2000 photograph of a used car and not the car and title.

    So off we go riding into the Sunset. Just wear sunglasses as it is difficult to see and when the light drops past the horizon... you see even less of what is up ahead.

    Watch the 'shell games' on the sidewalks on the Las Vegas Strip. There was one going on last year. These guys work as a group. They are the ones making $100 bets and win. Of the five watching... one is the sucker and you are it. This also applies to Craps. If you do not see the sucker... you are IT.
     
    #20
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