Let's say you're at a $10 table minimum and 10x odds. Note the figures will vary slightly depending upon the point, as the payouts vary. 1. You make a Pass Line Bet for $10. A 6 is rolled. You back up your Pass Line Bet with $20 odds (2x), so you have $30 in action. If the 6 hits, you'll get paid $10 on the Pass Line Bet and $24 on the odds ($20 x 6/5), for a total win of $34. Had you made a Place Bet on the 6 for $30, you would be paid $35 ($30 x 7/6) on a win. With the same total amount wagered ($30), you get $1 more making a Place Bet compared with a Pass Line Bet with 2x odds when the point is 6 (or 8). 2. You make a Pass Line Bet for $10. A 6 is rolled. You back up your Pass Line Bet with $50 odds (5x), so you have $60 in action. If the 6 hits, you'll get paid $10 on the Pass Line Bet and $60 on the odds ($50 x 6/5), for a total win of $70. Had you made a Place Bet on the 6 for $60, you would also be paid $70 ($60 x 7/6) on a win. Same total amount wagered ($60) and same total payout on a win ($70) when the point is 6 (or 8) at 5x odds. 3. You make a Pass Line Bet for $10. A 6 is rolled. You back up your Pass Line Bet with $100 odds (10x), so you have $110 in action. If the 6 hits, you'll get paid $10 on the Pass Line Bet and $120 on the odds ($100 x 6/5), for a total win of $130. Had you made a Place Bet on the 6 for $110, you would be paid $128 ($110 x 7/6 = $128.33, which rounds down to $128 because fractional amounts aren't paid at the craps table; the actual calculation used is $108 x 7/6 + $2 = $128) on a win. With 10x odds, when the number is 6 (or 8) you're better off by $2 making a Pass Line Bet with 10x odds (compared with the same total amount -- $110 in this example -- wagered as a Place Bet).

What tick What tickles me Mad Demango is when these guys speak of getting five hits on the Across bet, & THEN regressing, OR letting the hand extend in its entirety, SOMETIMES actually PRESSING as the numbers hit ( James Hall). Now, G bets across, & ( if memory serves me correctly), he presses the first hit, & regresses after the fifth roll. Now, I have seen G shoot, & he has a winning toss, but ( in my opinion), ya give up what little edge that ya MIGHT have by betting Across without a regression at some point in the hand ( preferably after the first or second hit). Now, I witnessed G dig himself a early ditch betting Across, & then turn around & toss perfectly to gain a profit! My point being......Ya just have to work too friggin hard to stay ahead of the bet. Much easier ways to skin the Cat. Doesn't the Across bet carry something like a 3.8% edge?

That's the same reason why the come bet sucks, for my $15 I will always make more money on the place bets I have and by the way, it's anything over 5X's odds. But with that said there is times when you would want put bets as DeMango wrote. Most players don't know how to capitalize on the roll of their life time when it's happening. Hell, most players will still have just a pass line bet at roll fifty like poor little Butter Cup! Then he must wonder why he can't win while others around him are!

James Pre-post reply: With the proper training a skilled shooter should beat the All Across bet with no problems! EASY PEASY, thanks to all of my training from Sydney the Kidney! Who, ME worry?

What he meant to say that if he played the pass line for $10 and backed it with $1000 (Casino Royale and others) odds he would make $40 more than if he bought the 10 for $1010! For the 4 & 10 of course. Break even is 20X for the 4 and 10. Who be stupid now?

All we really know is that there is a better than 50% chance of a 7 by the 4th roll! By the way that's how Sam's Town makes money off it's "4 Rolls no 7" side bet paid at even money

No reason for using the 6 instead of the 4 (or another point number) in my previous example, SR. I just happened to pick 6. Besides, you know I don't get involved in pissing matches that happen on this forum, unless they involve college football. 1. If the point was a 4 (or 10), the payoff on a winning $10 Put bet with $20 odds (2x) -- $30 total wagered -- would be $50 ($10 + 2 x $20). A winning $30 Buy bet on the 4 (or 10) would result in a $59 payoff (2 x $30 - $1 vig). Might be $2 vig at casinos that strictly enforce 5% ($1 vig per $20). A winning $30 Place bet on the 4 (or 10) would result in a $54 payoff (9/5 x $30). 2. If the point was a 4 (or 10), the payoff on a winning $10 Put bet with $50 odds (5x) -- $60 total wagered -- would be $110 ($10 + 2 x $50). A winning $60 Buy bet on the 4 (or 10) would result in a $117 payoff (2 x $60 - $3 vig). A winning $60 Place bet on the 4 (or 10) would result in a $108 payoff (9/5 x $60). 3. If the point was a 4 (or 10), the payoff on a winning $10 Put bet with $100 odds (10x) -- $110 total wagered -- would be $210 ($10 + 2 x $100). A winning $110 Buy bet on the 4 (or 10) would result in a $214 payoff (2 x $110 - $6 vig). A winning $110 Place bet on the 4 (or 10) would result in a $198 payoff (9/5 x $110).

Guess I need to go read a book, & learn the correct odds on the game. I thought it was a 50% chance of a 7 by the 6th roll! Silly me!

My example assumed a delayed (after the point has been established) Pass Line Bet with odds. It's in the footnotes.

Thanks........for the very complete and clear explanation. It does make sense.........to bet it that way.

Thanks......... I doubt that I will ever get to table limits......but it is good to know.........should I ever need it.

Nah, Top, you're good. You seem to have a pretty good idea of how to play the game. Math can overly-complicate things at times when playing craps. Case in point -- I ignore the math when I'm making the All Tall Small Bonus Bets, which have a 7.5% to 20.6% house edge (depending upon payouts). If I considered the math only, I wouldn't make an ATS Bonus Bet. As for the 4 rolls, no 7 scenario: Probability of a non-7 number being rolled on a given roll: 30/36 = 5/6 Probability of a 7 being rolled on a given roll: 6/36 = 1/6 5/6 + 1/6 = 1 5/6 raised to the 4th power = (5 * 5 * 5 * 5) / (6 * 6 * 6 * 6) = 625 / 1296 = .482253 = 48.2253% probability there will be only non-7 numbers (e.g., no 7) rolled after 4 rolls have occurred. Therefore, probability of 51.7747% (1 - .482253) there will be a 7 rolled after 4 rolls have occurred.

Use the information that can be found on this forum and make your own determination. Bet the way you want and in amounts you are comfortable betting. Perhaps you like the ability to turn off Place Bets when there is a stick change (or after one of the All Tall Small Bonus Bets gets paid, if it is settled during the roll). Or maybe there are a lot of natural come out winners being rolled and you feel like loading up the Pass Line hoping for a "quick hit". In the end, it's your money and your responsibility. What works for some might not be a good fit for your particular situation. Finally, the only way to accurately ascertain which way is (would have been) better is after-the-fact when you're done playing for the session.

UNLESS they KNOW what their SRR is - AND - BET accordingly ! e.g. - IF your SRR at home is 8 - then your bets in the casino better be OFF - OR - DOWN - AFTER your 7th ROLL - THEN - IF and WHEN - you exceed your NORM - The option is yours to regress, same bet or simply wait for the 7 to appear ! THAT boys and girls is THE ESSENCE of HOME PRACTICE - Like Clint Eastwood so succinctly stated - on more than one occasion - " A man has to know his limitations " ! $...eE..$