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Taking odds on the Don't Pass / Not betting on the Pass or Don't Pass

Discussion in 'Beginner Zone' started by mycoalsmith, Oct 29, 2012.

  1. mycoalsmith, Oct 29, 2012

    mycoalsmith

    mycoalsmith Member

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    I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the whole game of Craps. I think I've made progress but still have some questions.

    Question #1. Should you or should you not take odds on the Don't Pass line? I can see taking the odds when you play the Pass Line as you are getting back more than you bet. (Well, if you win!) But for the Don't Pass - you have to bet more money than what you will win. So if I'm going to play Don't Pass, wouldn't I be better off to just up my regular bet and forget about the odds?

    Question #2. I see that most players at the Craps table are actually players in that they shoot the dice. But recently while in Granville PA, I noticed quite a few people who refused to shoot and didn't play the Pass or Don't Pass. They waited until a point was established, and then they started to put down place bets. I can see their stance - instead of wasting money on Pass or Don't Pass (and risk losing it), they just make place bets and when they feel the luck of the Shooter is about up, they call in their bets. (I have to say, some of them seemed to do pretty good.)

    Usually when I walk up to a Craps table, I buy my Chips and usually watch each player throw before I actually start betting. I'm a believer in that you can do better if you attempt to control the dice rather than just pick them up, shake them up in your hand and throw. Once I've seen how everyone throws, I start betting. If they seem to take their time and set the dice - I usually play the Pass Line. If they just grab the dice and throw, or grab them and kiss them and throw, or grab them and roll them around in their hand before throwing I usually play the Don't Pass line.

    Looking forward to some input. Thanks!
  2. CubyTuesday, Oct 29, 2012

    CubyTuesday

    CubyTuesday Member

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    I am always the only 'dont ' player at the table (unless someone is mirroring me). If you play the dont pass line, then the odds are in your favour if you get past the comeout. so regardless of whether you put down odds, you are the favourite to win. Grafstein says to lay max odds, myself I only lay odds if point is 4 or 10. I play conservative but still get the money. Everyone has their own way of betting. You just have to find one you like and stick with it. You should get a copy of the 'Dice Doctor'. It will help a lot.

    CT

  3. JHPA

    JHPA Member

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    Question 1: You seem to only be looking at one half of the equation. You are looking at the payout for the win. You are ignoring the likelihood of the win. To evaluate each bet you have to take both into consideration.

    For every bet on the felt, there is a calculation called house advantage. HA takes into account both the liklihood of the bet winning and the amount you get paid if you win. The lower the house advantage, the better the bet. So you can see that the odds bets - on both the come and don;t come - are the best bets at the table.

    Here they are:

    Bet House Edge (Percent)
    Pass Line/Come Bet 1.41
    Don’t Pass/Come 1.40
    Pass Line/Come Bet 2X odds .85
    Don’t Pass/Come 2X odds .83
    Place 6 and 8 1.52
    Place 5 and 9 4.00
    Place 4 and 10 6.67
    Buy 6 or 8 4.76
    Buy 5 or 9 4.76
    Buy 4 or 10 4.76
    Lay 6 or 8 4.00
    Lay 5 or 9 3.23
    Lay 4 or 10 2.44
    Field Bet 5.56
    Any Craps 11.11
    Hardway 6 or 8 9.09
    Hardway 4 or 10 11.10
    Yo or 3 11.10
    2 or 12 13.90
    Any 7 16.70

    Question 2 - forget it....there is no such thing as someone who controlls or influences the dice. It can not be done. Go to the casino to play craps, not to wait around for someone who looks like they can do the impossible.
  4. CubyTuesday, Oct 29, 2012

    CubyTuesday

    CubyTuesday Member

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    Question 2: controversial, but I have to agree, but agree from what I have seen at the table. All d.I.'s I have seen have rolled the same as random rollers. Maybe they were just bad d.I.'s. Point is, don't worry about the rolls, think about your betting strategy.
  5. mycoalsmith, Oct 30, 2012

    mycoalsmith

    mycoalsmith Member

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    Concerning Question # 1. I still don't understand the advantage of putting odds on Don't Pass. For a $10.00 minimum table, say I put $10.00 on the Don't Pass. If I win, I get my $10.00 back plus an additional $10.00. Now, if I add the odds and put down $10.00 odds, if the point rolled is a 4 or 10 and a seven is rolled, for my $10.00 bet, I get my $10.00 back, but only get an addional $5.00. Right? A 4 or 10 point pays 1 to 2 odds for Don't Pass line.

    The way I'm looking at it, if I would have just bet $20.00 on the Don't Pass and don't play odds I would get back a total of $40.00. But if I put $10.00 on the Don't Pass line and the point is a 4 or 10 and I put $10.00 on odds and a seven is rolled, then I only get $35.00 total instead of $40.00. Either way, the most I can lose is $20.00. But one way I get paid $40.00 and the other way I only get paid $35.00. (Of course, the thing I don't know on the come out roll, is if a 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, or 10 is going to be rolled.)

    Now granted, the odds pay more if the point is 5 or 9 and pay even more if it's 6 or 8. (The odds for Don't Pass are directly opposite of the Pass Line). But of course a 6 or 8 is alot more likely to be rolled than a 5 or 9 and even more likely for a 6 or 8 to come up before a 4 or 10 come up.

    Are my calculations correct?
  6. DeMango, Oct 30, 2012

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

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    There is never any advantage to placing odds. Zero.

    There is no disadvantage either except one. Variance. And since the casino has more money than you they win the variance game.

    A long time ago dealers could be fired for advising to add odds.

    Now they urge you to. Think about it!
  7. basicstrategy777, Oct 30, 2012

    basicstrategy777

    basicstrategy777 Member

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    The only reason is you would make more money....you have not factored in the comeout.....if you do, overall, you will lose more just playing the DPL.

    777
  8. DeMango, Oct 30, 2012

    DeMango

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    Excuse me BS but with no advantage how, exactly, do you make more money???
  9. basicstrategy777, Oct 30, 2012

    basicstrategy777

    basicstrategy777 Member

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    You bet more on the DPL when you do not lay odds, hence, you lose more when a natural is tossed on the comeout ......than if you bet less and lay odds after the come out. e.g. 2 players betting the same amounts, one straight DPL ( say 15 dollars )the other DPL with odds ( say 5 dollars DPL and lay 10 ).......the one laying odds will end up with more money in his rack.


    777
  10. Lifeisacrapshoot, Oct 30, 2012

    Lifeisacrapshoot

    Lifeisacrapshoot Member

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    Hi MyCoalSmith,

    I'm with you. I am still trying to understand the game of Craps, fully. There is so much to learn and with all of the other types of bets/contract bets, etc., it can be overwhelming at times. Anyone who is bad at math might not do too well at craps. Must think fast and move fast. No late bets. Also, I have never played the DPL nor have I placed any bets on the Come/DC. For me personally, the DP feels negative. I never bet on a shooter who shoots from the DP. That's just my thing.

    I need to sit down and read some of the suggested books so I can take my time to really "get" it. I will also try to go through this forum more thoroughly and see if I can follow what the CF Senior members are sharing with us.

    I always set my dice. I feel good when I do it. When I feel good and confident, it shows and I tend to shoot well and usually hit the numbers I want. Of course, I have my bad days, too. Hey, but isn't that why it's called, Gambling?

    Thanks for putting your great question on the forum. Like you I'm trying to wrap my head around a few things.

    Lifeisacrapshoot (Pam)
  11. Lifeisacrapshoot, Oct 30, 2012

    Lifeisacrapshoot

    Lifeisacrapshoot Member

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    @ DeMango, you gave me something to think about. Next time I go to the casino I will not put any odds behind my PL bet. I'll simply play the PL min. bet in order to be the shooter. Usually before I leave home I write down my cash amt and amt of chips I take to the casino. I don't always cash out my chips before going home, if I know I'll return within a few days. Btw, when someone else is the shooter, I do not play the PL at all. I much prefer placing bets on points 8 and 9. (8 is great and 9 is fine) Corny, but it works for me. :)
  12. DeMango, Oct 30, 2012

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

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    BS: More on the line the bigger the loss. The less on the line with more odds, the less the loss. Agreed.

    Pam: There is an alternate dice universe out there. Check out Heavy's site, I'm sure there is a link here somewhere.
  13. basicstrategy777, Oct 30, 2012

    basicstrategy777

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    She is getting the wrong message 'D' , best clarify this odds thing.

    777
  14. Lifeisacrapshoot, Oct 30, 2012

    Lifeisacrapshoot

    Lifeisacrapshoot Member

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    Hi Guys,

    I will check back on the site later tonight or tomorrow. Have to get out and handle my "non-craps" business, too. I want to carve out some time to spend on CF and soak up as much info as I can handle. Trying to keep level headed. I still have to check out Heavy's site when I get some extra time.

    Btw, I am so fascinated with that phenominal roll that Patricia DeMauro had in Atlantic City at the Borgata Casino on May 23, 2009, when she rolled the dice 154 times before rolling a 7. It took her 4 hours and 18 minutes. I would've loved to have been there that day. That must've been one hellava payout. I read that the odds of anyone rolling the dice 154 times without hitting a 7 are 1 in 5.59 billion.

    Thanks much,

    Lifeisacrapsshoot (Pam)
  15. basicstrategy777, Oct 30, 2012

    basicstrategy777

    basicstrategy777 Member

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    I seriously doubt she did not roll a 7.

    777
  16. The Midnight Skulker, Oct 31, 2012

    The Midnight Skulker

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    Your calculations are correct, but your logic is not. You are looking only at a portion of the process you are betting on, not the whole process. You are the favorite to win the bet once you're behind a number, so why did you save money for odds when you could have put it on the Don't Pass where it would get paid even money now? Oh yeah, there was that thing called the comeout roll, where you were at an 8:3 disadvantage.

    Overall the casino expects to win 1.40% of the money you bet on Don't Pass, but 0.00% of the money you bet on odds. Yes, odds on the Don't pay less than what you bet, but this is exactly offset by them winning more times than they lose. The question, then, is not whether or not laying odds gives you an advantage, but rather whether or not there is a better bet you can make with that odds money, one that is expected to lose less. There isn't.
  17. mycoalsmith, Oct 31, 2012

    mycoalsmith

    mycoalsmith Member

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    Thanks for all the feedback. I understand that the Comeout roll is the main hurdle to get over, and once a point is made, it's more in favor after that, that a 7 will roll before the point number. But it still sems "wrong" to me to put odds money on, and however much I put down, if I win I'm not even doubling my money. (But I do see where AFTER the comeout roll, the Don't Pass is more likely to come up.)

    Lifeisacrapshoot (Pam), what casino are you nearest? My nearest casino is a 2 hour drive - which is probably a good thing, because if a casino was in my neighborhood, I could see where I would want to be stopping in all the time!) But I would have to disagree with your rational of not putting odds on your Pass Line bet - if you win, you are at the minimum doubling your money. Please note that I was talking about putting odds on the Don't Pass line.

    As I said, I usually watch everyone shoot before I actually start to play. I do think setting the dice does help. It seems when I would just pick up the dice and throw them after my point was established, I usally would 7 out right away. It seems when I set the dice before throwing them, I throw for a longer period. (I seem to throw alot of 5's even though I'm trying to get 6's and 8's.)

    This coming weekout, I"m going to the Seneca Allegany casino in Salamanca, NY, so will be playing some Craps. I'm hoping to come away a winner.
  18. DeMango, Oct 31, 2012

    DeMango

    DeMango Member

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    BS; Midnight handled it very well!
  19. basicstrategy777, Oct 31, 2012

    basicstrategy777

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    The bottom line is you should always take/lay odds ......the reason is because it is the only bet you can make in the casino that is a fair bet, with neither the player or the casino having an advantage. It is the best bet in the house.

    Now if you are playing with scared money or for some reason don't like the odds bet.....that's another story. But to say the casino offers a bet where it does not have an advantage, is a powerful statement.

    777
  20. DeMango, Oct 31, 2012

    DeMango

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    Lets go to a casino with great odds. That used to be the Riviera with 1000X odds. We will approach the table with 10 bets, that is $5 pass line plus $1000 odds. Total action upto $10,050. We make 10 bets. Our expected loss is 70 cents. If we walk up to the table with $50 and make 10 pass line bets, no odds, our expected loss is 70 cents. BUT our ACTUAL loss could be $10,050 vs $50. Would you walk away happy, with that $10,050. loss, knowing you had a great bet? This is why the casino wins the variance (volatility) battle: It has more money than you!