The Invisible Art of Dice Control

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by Onautopilot, Jun 11, 2015.

  1. Onautopilot, Jun 11, 2015

    Onautopilot

    Onautopilot Member

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    I like to think that I am at least a little open minded, and have always allowed that DC is a possibility. Skeptics are always asking for proof, slow motion video, actual observation of a deviation from random that is not allowed for in probability, etc. etc. But it seems to me that any attempt at proof, runs into a problem. As the visibility of control diminishes, it almost certainly will reach a point of virtual invisibility. I use the term invisible, to mean attempting to identify "control" from "random"....where the difference is almost indistinguishable. A point where it almost becomes faith...maybe.

    For example, one can roll the dice a few inches, and achieve almost perfect control, as the distance increases, the control diminishes. As the "barriers" increase, table surface, back board (pyramids), the control further diminishes. Add in the flaws of the DI, and at some point, we reach some level of invisibility between control and random.

    Identifying that minute "influence" becomes extremely difficult. With enough, what ever enough means, trials, one could probably establish some confidence level that satisfied the skeptic, if the standard deviation was such that it was outside random expectation. The larger the influence, the easier that becomes, but for the most part "large" influence is non existent, as relates to, in the casino bank craps...if it were, the casinos would not tolerate it for a second!

    So, for the amateur DI, this proof is most likely beyond their capability, both in numbers, and time required to turn the invisible into the visible through "Confidence level statistics". I have heard claims from some of the DC gurus, that this has been done, but yet to witness it. There have also been challenges played out, but the trials were far too small for establishing "visibility" to a point of proof.

    Maybe the "art" is intended to remain invisible, and much like religion, the DI's visibility is as much a matter of faith as any need for a proof. With this view, I probably can accept that, and doubt I will ask for proof from anyone claiming DI skills, in the future.

    But, if you are selling the concept, I reserve the right to.......oh, never mind. :)
     
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  2. TDVegas, Jun 11, 2015

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    As far as DI being a possibility, it basically comes down to the fact that the DI is only left with "you have to believe me"....

    I would suggest that just about all of them are not tracking enough rolls to make the determination of DI or random rolling. If they claim they have won for the year so that is all they need to make the claim....so be it. I think there are likely other reasons why they are up. Luck being one.

    There's been a LOT written. My reality is that great claims like Dice control require great evidence. Someone writing a book or selling a system or coming into an anonymous message board and making the claim goes beyond my reality. Others might believe. To each his own.

    I remain a vehement skeptic and don't think it is possible to control dice with any regularity or certainty to gain an edge over the house. I cite the lack of a betting progression as one of my main back ups to remain a skeptic.
     
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  3. Onautopilot, Jun 11, 2015

    Onautopilot

    Onautopilot Member

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    I agree with most of your proffer, but saying you think it is not possible, puts you at the end of a spectrum that is almost as hard to defend as the DI's claims. :)
     
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  4. TDVegas, Jun 11, 2015

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    Theoretically it is possible. Do I think anyone here is at that zenith? No...

    But that's just my nature. I'm a seeing is believing type.
     
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  5. Onautopilot, Jun 11, 2015

    Onautopilot

    Onautopilot Member

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    Me too....and I'm not even from MO. :)
     
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  6. TDVegas, Jun 11, 2015

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    having lived in the east and west...I'm far from it. Still in my blood.:D
     
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  7. Liman

    Liman Member

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    you guys are full of hogwash.
    haven't you read this board lately.
    90% of the DI tossers that post on this board make money on a regular basis.
    They are raking in the dough.
    What other proof do you two need?
     
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  8. betwthelines, Jun 11, 2015

    betwthelines

    betwthelines Member

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    i too am extremely skeptical but open to at least the possibility of DI...what i would require is replicable PROOF...from the beginning of DI advocacy such is yet to be demonstrated...further to be of any value at all, it would need to be proof under real casino conditions...

    it has been put forth that this proof is not forthcoming simply as an in-the-casino practical matter if nothing else...but i wonder about that...it seems to me that without the casino necessarily even being aware of it that a mathematical proof could be done...but even if aware, it seems to me, this would not be a barrier...casino bosses are not at all perturbed about someone bringing in a notebook and tracking rolls (quite the opposite is more likely the case!!)...they see it all the time...plus for my considerations below it would be desirable that several, different casino and bank craps tables would be involved...

    ..."what ever enough means", pilot ruminates...for me "enough" would be two separate trials of 5000 rolls each...obviously these trials would be over a considerable duration and encompass many sessions (but so what? this is no "practical" barrier...we've waited this long anyway, havent we?)...The DI pro would need to "call his shot" so to speak...this might be avoidance of 7s, for example, or a preponderance of 10s or 4s or whatever he might call...at this point i would need help from a "math expert" as to just what a valid deviation might be that would confirm INFLUENCE...now here my math expert might demur and tell me also that 5000 rolls isnt even necessary, but, nope, sorry, for me, i need 5000...obviously impartial judges/witnesses would be involved...BOTH 5000 roll trials would need to show this validity for it satisfy me...

    my money would be on there would be no second trial as the first one would fail...tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p

    ...
     
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  9. TDVegas, Jun 11, 2015

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    Having lived in Vegas for a bunch of years now...I see the light as far as gambling goes. Sure, you get your tourists coming in from all over the world to ply a little lady luck. There are many that check in to the resorts, flush with their $1,500 in gambling money and go and gamble for the next 3-4 days. There are many that will get on the plane back home with $2,500. They won!! A beautiful thing. Lady luck has been on their side for a few days. Happy, content.

    Cue to the local who lives in Vegas and plays. He is not so lucky. He is playing too many times, too many sessions and too many hours and the "war of attrition" has gotten to him. He does not win. That doesn't mean he doesn't win on Monday or Tuesday. It just means over the course of his year going to the casino a couple times a week (3?)---he cannot and does not win.

    I'll see him siddle up to the craps table, dump his 4 C-notes and "let's roll baby". Within 20 minutes he has tapped out. 15 minutes later I happen to be walking back to my car and I see him put the key into his 1982 Oldsmobile 88--ga-gung, ga-gung, ga-gung, BAM, it starts with black smoke spewing from the muffler. I cringe to think of where and what he lives in, yet those c notes plopped out like I might toss a few pennies into the fountain.

    The side of Vegas no one wants to talk about. It's not isolated. My views on gambling have changed since I moved here. I have seen it first hand many, many times....

    No one here gets out unscathed. The hit and run tourist can do it. The dweller? No.

    A DI with an edge---he would be here.
     
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  10. Harley, Jun 11, 2015

    Harley

    Harley Member

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    That explains a lot ...

    If one were to find gold in the desert, would he tell everyone how and where he found it :rolleyes:

    TDVegas - give us your bank account and routing information and we will exchange our code to deposits to our bank account ... Until then quit asking for free information and/or private information to be exposed on a public board
     
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    Last edited: Jun 17, 2015
  11. tabletop123, Jun 11, 2015

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    Onautopilot, You CANNOT control or Influence the Dice To a LARGE degree from EVEN a Very short Distance. This is what I've been saying all Along!! The problem with Most DI's is they Don't Have the Proper Equipment(Practice Rigs Give False Results, or Should I say.... they don't tell the WHOLE Story) to Discover the OBVIOUS. No matter how Close you are to the Back Wall, there's just not Much Influence going on, & that's the ABSOLUTE truth. Furthermore, everyone keeps Touting "The Pyramids". It's NOT just the Darn Pyramids. You CANNOT have a Large Degree of Influence Tossing SQUARE Cubes on a Hard Surface. PERIOD!! End of Story. Truth be told..... You'd have a BETTER chance of gaining influence by hitting two inches in Front of the Back wall, (One Bounce, hit The Wall & Drop) Than trying to AVOID the Back Wall. A lot of Forum Members Don't agree with Scoblete, But what he Professes is True. A series of Bounces is Actually WORSE than if the Dice hit the table ONLY once & Hit the Pyramids. Sure, the Pyramids do Randomize the Toss, but SEVERAL Bounces(Two or More) is Actually Worse for a controlled Toss, than hitting the Pyramids on One Bounce. These things that I speak CAN be Confirmed if One would just take the time to experiment on an Empty Table(Preferably on a Non-casino Table), & this way you can Conduct Your OWN experiments & Investigations WITHOUT Distraction from other Players. Now, everyone has heard of the "Blanket Roll". It is the Infamous roll that MANY dice Mechanics & Hustlers used on Beds, & smooth surfaces to Fleece Unsuspecting "Suckers". Try Rolling a Blanket Roll on a Real Craps table. It Just Doesn't work. You CANNOT "Blanket Roll" Dice on a Real Craps table. All you'd get is: Bumpity, Bump, Bump!! No "Smoothness" Whatsoever can be exhibited on a Craps Table, & if One wants to REFUTE this....... I have absolutely NO PROBLEM meeting you(At a Venue of Your Choice), & I'll Gladly Book ALL of Your action. Now, superrick Posted a Video of dice Being rolled down a slide from (I believe it was a foot or so from the Back Wall). The rolls showed Absolutely No Control. The DI's hollered "Bullshit" because they said the Test was Invalid. So......... MY Suggestion is to have One of the "Elite" shooters toss the dice from ONLY Three feet from the Back Wall, & let's see how they fare. Listen, I'm " all" for dice influencing. I wish it Did work as good as the Gurus claim it does. It's Just NOT so!!! Why don't we just put all of this Back & Forth Bullshit to Rest & Post the" three feet from the Back Wall Video" performed By an Elite Tosser & move on to a More Productive Topic. If I possessed a Slo-Mo Video, I'd GLADLY reveal the Results. For the LAST Friggin Time....... The Dice Rotation, trajectory, & the Accuracy of hitting your "Target" CAN be Mastered(Which I have Done to a VERY large Degree), But NOT the End Results of The Toss to produce CONSISTENTLY Favorable Results. Wish someone Would Let me Borrow a Dam Slo-Mo Camera. Would Purchase one Myself, but it would be Useless, Because I Already know the End Result. Not to mention that THOSE that are "On the Fence" about Dice Influencing........... (I say this VERY Respectfully), Need to Do your own Homework. I've already Done mine MANY Months Ago. You see, tossing Three feet from the back wall INSTEAD of from the Conventional 7-12 Feet Distances Should Dispel all Doubt. This way we don't have the "Die Hard" DI's Claiming: "Well, He/She just doesn't Possess the Talent to do it successfully!!!


    l
     
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  12. TDVegas, Jun 11, 2015

    TDVegas

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    I thought you were fighting the gambling control board over fluffy dice? We get it Harley, you are making a killing at the craps and roulette tables with your systems.:rolleyes: but you want to fix that for the casinos by having them change the dice and in effect possibly upset your income. More eye roll.

    Bridge...sell...Brooklyn
    Land...sell...everglades.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 11, 2015
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  13. Onautopilot, Jun 11, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    I tend to agree in most part. I think I was just accepting the premise that if one claims he or she has some skill at influencing a dice roll, I would not challenge that contention anymore. I will just assume that they have faith in their belief, much as someone has faith in their religion. If that gives them some satisfaction, and benefit, even maybe monetarily, I applaud it. Just decided to take a different view is all. I haven't changed my skepticism, just my perception. I haven't however, changed my opinion of the sellers of the "art"!
     
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  14. Onautopilot, Jun 11, 2015

    Onautopilot

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    I suppose I should probably take the same view with Gambler's Fallacy proponents...."DUE" theory, or Precognition, but I won't.....I need someone to screw with! :)
     
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  15. tabletop123, Jun 11, 2015

    tabletop123

    tabletop123 Member

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    The sellers(Gurus) of the Craft REALLY do have a "Disguised" product to sell. I mean, Really, Witnessing the Dice Flying through the air as a unit is Very Deceptive & Misleading. Witnessing a Skilled Tosser can easily allow one to Believe in the Craft. Scoblete, Dominator, Burton, & Stickman had a Video that was posted for a Long time on the internet. I'm sure that many of us have viewed the Video. Now, if one was to Witness Stickman's Toss...... It was a ABSOLUTE thing of Beauty. Dice Glued together, hitting the SAME spot Repeatedly. If a "Wannabe" DI ever witnessed Stickman's Toss, He/She would have been "Sold" on the Spot. In terms of the Toss itself, Stickman's Toss would be the Perfect instructional Video for a Person attempting a Controlled Toss. Now, Without witnessing the End Results of Stickman's Toss(The Video did NOT reveal toss Results) I cannot say that The RESULTS were influenced. However, The "Mechanics" of his toss was Definitely Flawless. Remember the old saying though: All that Glitters aint Gold! Not to Bash Stickman, but The End Results of that Beautiful looking Toss could have Very well been a piece of shit. Who Knows, other than the Participants in the Video? We all try to Do SOMETHING to help us win more & lose Less. Certainly NOTHING wrong with attempting a controlled Toss, just don't put too much "Stock" in the end Results of the Toss.
     
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  16. betwthelines, Jun 11, 2015

    betwthelines

    betwthelines Member

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    this is a curious post...pardon my naivety as i have never bothered seeing a dice toss video myself but i am a bit curious as to why the results were not shown...what was the purpose of that? one has to think that the results were less than impressive, no?...tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
     
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  17. Liman

    Liman Member

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    tdvegas-you have upset me now with that post.

    on the biggest daily win of my craps life up until then, (now my second largest win up to date), back in the early eighties, I won in excess of 10 thousand dollars at ballys park place in Atlantic city, and when I got home, the next day, I went to Bonds Oldsmobile,(howard Beach NY) and forked over most of that win and purchased a delta 88, and I loved that car.
    I waxed it almost weekly, and keeping in fashion with the neighborhood, as soon as I finished waxing it I put it back into the garage.
     
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  18. TDVegas, Jun 11, 2015

    TDVegas

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    I agree. Why not post the results? That's like showing 2/3rd's of the formula for the A bomb but leaving out the 3rd and most important part of the equation. Isn't the toss only 1 single aspect of the game? Don't the results ultimately determine success? I really can't grasp my hands around the concept of showing a video with a great toss but nothing else. That would be like showing a video of a pitcher with a perfect windup and release but for some reason the ball ended up in the seats behind the backstop.
     
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  19. TDVegas, Jun 11, 2015

    TDVegas

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    I'm sorry...I meant to say a 1988 Caprice Classic, not an Olds 88:D

    tinted windows:)
     
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  20. tabletop123, Jun 11, 2015

    tabletop123

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    Gentlemen, I agree! I would have loved to see the Results Myself. However, In MY honest Opinion, it really doesn't matter Because I KNOW that the results were pretty much Random anyway!! I recall that at the Beginning of the Video, frank said that we'd be witnessing a Practice session of the four Participants. Now, for WHAT PURPOSE......... you'd have to ask Frank!! I would assume that it was to show what a controlled toss should LOOK like. Although, the (Allegedly) Best DI in the world (Which was supposedly Dominator) had the shittiest looking toss that I've EVER see., Dice were flying all over the Place & some of his tosses actually hit the side Mirrors. IMAGINE THAT!!!! The conditions that that they were practicing under(neutral Bounce Table) should have shown tosses that hit the back wall & died, & to the SOME of the Participants credit...... SOME actually did hit & stop WITHOUT much rollout. Only problem is that you won't find very many tables with that kind of a neutral Bounce.There's normally some kind of underlay on the tables that we encounter these Days. Bottom line is that "Tosses" are influenced, Results of the Toss are Subject to Randomness just like Joe Shithead that can barely keep the Dice on the Table. it's all pretty much the same. Until I witness a DI that can CONSISTENTLY influence the "OUTCOME" of the toss, I'll remain "Reserved" in my opinion about Dice influencing.
     
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