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Throwing on a bouncy table question

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by LZNam, Aug 6, 2011.


  1. LZNam

    LZNam Member

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    I was reading somewhere that on a bouncy table you throw the dice lower and come in less than a 45 degree angle. Also throw the dice very very soft.

    Can someone be a little more specific than that?

    Has anyone have any luck with throwing on a bouncy table? If so how did you do it?

    Thanks
  2. OwnTheFelt, Aug 6, 2011

    OwnTheFelt

    OwnTheFelt Member

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    Hey,

    I just have some general questions for you. What book were you reading? Have you ever played on a bouncy table? If so, where at?

    I currently just finished reading "Get the Edge at Craps" by Sharpshooter. In terms of Dice Control, he highly recommends keeping the same rhythm every time you shoot. I read on message boards and on YouTube that The Dominator recommends throwing earlier and softer on bouncy tables because the energy from the table is stronger than that of a softer table. If you throw earlier, your dice tend to roll and hit the back wall to die rather than bounce then die. (according to Dom)

    The only real bouncy table I have encountered was at Stratosphere. The table is hard and the felt is synthetic so it gives the dice a lot more life! I start betting slow when I play there to see if everything is aligned. If I seven out consistently then I just stop playing and go somewhere else. I am a firm believer of what Sharpshooter says, "develop a rhythm and stick to it" Once you change things up, it can hurt your throw. JMO

    Good Luck! I am sure you will get some good responses.
  3. $nakeEye$, Aug 7, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    Your comment regarding " earlier and softer " sounds like a baseball " change -up pitch " where the pitcher appears to be throwing a fast ball at full speed -

    But releases the ball prior to end of his throw -

    This results in a " floater type pitch " which is on target but at a much reduced velocity than a normal pitch would be.

    "develop a rhythm and stick to it" - I do not recall reading that in his book - however - that in my opinion is very sound advice - tends to avoid a whole lot of potential problems that could arise when one attempts to " change this, change that, modify this, alter that, etc ... ".

    Another attitude , which is professed by " The Mad Professor" and "Dicenator" -

    Is utilizing the " underhand grip " - which they espouse as to be the panacea for " bouncy " tables - especially the ones which have the new micro fiber fabric / synthetic materials - which produce a bounce comparable to a trampoline !

    The only drawback to the " UH Grip " is for a right-hander - you are limited to table positions SR1, SR2, or Hook Right - and the opposite is true for lefties.

    The throw does not work from table end / straight out positions.
  4. Southern-Comfort, Aug 7, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

    Southern-Comfort Member

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    Shooting from the end you shouldn't be using a high trajectory whether or not the table is bouncy, just so much distance to travel. Low and light, like pitching pennies.
    I find that using the diamonds help to start the dice out straight. They are the same size and shape as the dice so by starting with them pessed into the diamonds start you out straight.
    But back to the subject of bouncy tables.. yes if its too bouncy to toss high, lower the angle but slow it down also. There is no rule that fits all tables so just find where you can hit ight with the dice together and hopefully hit the back wall with only one bounce and on the way down on it.
  5. OwnTheFelt, Aug 7, 2011

    OwnTheFelt

    OwnTheFelt Member

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    Snakeyes,

    You are right; it does not say exactly what I said but it does say, "However poweful a set may be, no dice set is useful if the shooter has not yet developed a consistent method of delivering the dice (108). "You must learn the mechanics of an optimal delivery system and then practice them until they become second nature (108)"

    I might have taken the statement a little out of context =)

    Either way, if you are not sure how a table is reacting; take your time and bet slow until you feel ready.

    Good luck!
  6. $nakeEye$, Aug 7, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    S-C,

    In the casinos and on my home practice set-up - I shoot 95% of the time from the table end / straight out position.

    I use the 3 Finger Front grip, index, middle and ring fingers are placed on the top edge / diagonals of the dice and my thumb is positioned all the down on the dice -

    I start with the dice touching the table felt and the bottom of the pyramid rubber -

    Launch at a 45 * angle with a wrist snap to add a little more backspin on the dice -

    And attempt to land them approx. 4-8 inches from the back wall -

    The dice generally land flat with a loud " smack " and run up to or lightly bounce off the back wall.

    My practice set-up is the length of a 12 foot craps table as are the casino tables that I play on.

    I have also tried landing the dice at the juncture of the base of the pyramid rubber and the table felt - thereby eliminating the influence of the pyramids altogether.

    I intentionally practice from this length with the belief and understanding that if I can shoot from this far out with success - my throwing from closer in would be more efective.

    So far I am pretty satisfied with my results and I generally put in an hour or so of practice daily.

    If any one is interested there is a video on shooting from table end at http://www.dicecoach.com/theend.asp -

    My grip is different than what Beau shows, but works fine for me.
  7. Southern-Comfort, Aug 7, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

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    Let's see... 45 degree angle on a 12 footer would be about 6 feet off the felt at mid-table. Less if you are tossing slowly (I'll assume you are since the stickman would get annoyed very qucky having to watch toss after toss going over his head). You've got a good touch if you can loft a slow pitch to 4 inches from the backwall accurately and with control. Could be you are that good, I've seen some who were... not me though.
    By the way, your link doesn't work. But my guess is its either an underhand toss or an overhand emulating an underhand in trajectory.
    Ummm looks like its the site is diown, I'll try it again later.
  8. Southern-Comfort, Aug 8, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

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    Ok, Snakeyes.. finally got to see the video. I have serious issues with DiceCoach's grip. However, Pablo reminded me so much of the Hawaiian guys last spring (did a post about them) that I have to say the missing piece of my puzzle with them is now filled in.
    DiceCoach did mention tossing a low arc as well.
    The guys from Hawaii were very impressive in their tosses, but really, really, sucked at money management. I would say go with Pablo's grip and sets and see where they lead you.
  9. $nakeEye$, Aug 8, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    Likewise - additionally Pablo's "Yuri " grip is unachieavable by any and all standards -

    I am familiar with the " Hawiaan Post " - very, very interesting - PPMM - Piss Poor Money Management -

    My ultimate objective / goal is to be as proficient at controlling / influencing the dice as one can be -

    I will settle for no less than being #1 -

    Although, I must admit , I have came in 2nd in more than one instance in my various professions -

    Was 2nd in my Computer Programming course which I took after High School - ( out of 20 students )

    Was #2 on the Sergeants' Exam for the RTPD - ( out of 20 Officers who were eligible and were tested )

    And more than likely - 1 or 2 more instances that I can not / will not - care to remember -

    The past is the past -

    Gone - But not forgotten -

    More to follow - but not now !!!!!!!!!
  10. Southern-Comfort, Aug 8, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

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    I didn't know that grip had a name, but I wouldn't diss it just yet. It's eerily similar to the grip my grandfather taught me long ago. I've seen what it can do. Its difficult to master, and very difficult to learn to do it at the table with a stickman waiting. But I'd rate it as a professinal grip.
    Now bear in mind, I'm not a professional, I just like to win. I genearlly use a much easier grip (three fingers in front, thumb in back). But that grip executed by someone who is comfortable with it can make some money.
    The secret to it is the two fingers in front need to go high on the dice, the thumb and other two figers in back are low on the dice.
  11. OwnTheFelt, Aug 8, 2011

    OwnTheFelt

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    SC

    Do you add a light backspin to your throw or just allow the follow through to create a natural backspin? I use the 3 finger grip and have a difficult time creating backspin naturally.

    Also, with the 3 finger grip; should I keep the two fingers in front the same length or only keep the middle finger and thumb lower than the ring finger?

    Thanks!
  12. Southern-Comfort, Aug 8, 2011

    Southern-Comfort

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    This is getting back to the subject of bouncy tables. I like less spin on a bouncy table. The backspin is controlled by the position of the thumb.. higher up = less spin, lower on the dice = more spin.
    Unless its just not working, I like very little extra spin, I tend it grip the top edge with fingers in front and thumb in the back as well. This creates very little spin, but also allows the dice to just come off the fingers without having to risk letting go unevenly. They tend to come out together without letting go if done just right (about 10% of the time for me). If its not working, move the thumb down and see what feels best.
  13. $nakeEye$, Aug 10, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    S-C,

    The referenced grip is depicted in Yuri's book entitled " Dice Control for Casino Craps " - " Gambling Disciples of God " -

    It is demonstrated on page 76 of that book as is captioned " the ideal grip " -

    I attempted to try this grip on more than one occassion -

    No way, Jose' -

    At least for me anyway -

    I will stick to what I can accomplish / achieve with the least possibility of mistakes / errors -

    I only attributed this particular dice grip to him - Yuri - because it was the very first time that I saw / heard of it -

    If your Grandfather knew of this in his heyday - he had to definately one very serious / knowledgable craps shooter !
  14. $nakeEye$, Aug 10, 2011

    $nakeEye$

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    I possibly miscalculated my launch angle by quite a few degrees -

    There is no way I am 6 feet from the top of the table - that would be 8+ feet off the floor -

    My toss from table end / straight out on a 12 foot table - would at the apex - at the maximum - be chest high to a normal person -

    Which I would estimate to be between 4 and 5 feet from the floor -

    And 18 inches to 30 +/- inches from table bed / throwing surface / table felt .

    Even my highest / loftiest throws from my end would be at or slightly below eye level of the stick person -

    Which might not be ideal - but - " That's Life " .
  15. siik2nr, Oct 10, 2011

    siik2nr

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    Threw for the first time on a synthetic table and I have to say, that from what I experienced, I liked it. Very soft, lower and aim about 12-14 inches away from the backwall and they will bounce softly against the back wall. I hit 7 points, 3 individual ones. The softer table seems to absorb the backspin energy better and the result is acutally a softer landing than with a hard table. Essentially, I can throw the dice super soft and get minimal off axis, double pitch throws.
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