Please correct me where I'm wrong. Although different: Vigorish being a commission and house edge being odds less than true odds. Aren't they the same thing? Why I ask is how can craps sites such as wizard of odds, next shooter and craps pit; all say that the house edge on laying the 4 or 10 (and paying 5% commission up front regardless of result) is only 2.44%. How can in not be 5% house edge? Your paying 5% commission to get true odds so that is the house edge period. If there are any learned friends out there who can help me out I'd be very grateful. Are all these so called experts on these websites wrong or am I way off the mark?

Vig is on a buy or lay to give the house a cut. Money up front or on win. House edge is a lesser payout such as 7/6 on a six as opposed to 6/5 true payout. That is on placed bets and hops and props.

It's figured against the amount bet. $1 commission/ $41 bet = 2.439% They count the vig as part of the bet. I prefer not to do that in my calculations. To each their own. It's to your advantage to seek out tables that charge on win only if possible. That's one of the reason I don't play live craps much in my local area. They charge vig up front on buy and lay bets.

Sincere thanks DeMango. Your reply is pretty much what I said in my second sentence. I was probably more questioning how the experts come to the calculation of 2.44% house edge on lay bets on the 4 and 10 considering you are paying 5% commission. Mssthis1 is smack on with his calculation. I don't agree with the reasoning behind it but at least I now understand how they come up with it. Not surprised that you are not only an accomplished poker player but extremely good with numbers. Thanks again both of you for your replies.

You will learn, we have people here with craps gravitas.........heavy paper guys........their WAM is 10 large , all beni's, folded in half, half inch thick, wrapped in an elastic band.....fits easily in right hand pocket.........ask me how I know.............you've come to the right place son........stick with us and you'll wear diamonds........,777

Wrongway, Don't let those that assume a $40 bet on the 4 or 10 & $1 Commission (to get 2.44% Vig.), Fool You! If a Casino Casino charges you a 5% Commission to Place or Lay the 4 or 10, (to get true odds of 2 to 1) That Vigorish is 5% against YOU, regardless of how much you bet!!! eagleeye2

I fully agree. I now look at the maths that these craps site quote and don't consider them gospel. I've often questioned the house edge quoted when you take the extra odds on the dark side. It could be argued you are doing yourself a disservice by diluting your even money payout on a odds on outcome. You've dodged a bullet by getting in behind the number and are now going to get paid "overs". Once you take odds you're getting less return on total investment than you would've if you just left the flat bet up there. Your thoughts?

The object of the game of craps is to get the most money bet on odds (either taking or laying) that you can afford.

Thoughts are simple: free odds are free odds unless there is influence then load up on odds including lay. Don’t fall for John Patrick bullshit, less return my ass.

DeMango By laying odds of course you are getting a lesser return. I donot believe in laying odds on the don't.John is right .

Dave, look at the math, not a math hater like John Patrick. Here is a clue: Casino’s look at the math. If you can throw 3 7’s for every one 10, the more odds you lay, the sooner you own the casino. It’s called dice influence. You are a so called di, are you not?

I have posted this link before. You may find it of interest; it is a conversation on this very subject I had with none other than the Grand Preacher of Don't Lay Odds himself, John Patrick, in The Before Time. The key flaw in the "dilutes your advantage" argument is the answer to the question: What bet is available for you to make is superior to laying odds?