What am I doin' here?

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by The Midnight Skulker, Oct 11, 2019.

  1. The Midnight Skulker, Oct 11, 2019

    The Midnight Skulker

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    Indulge me and my ignorance of the subject of DI for the only "official" training I have had in the craft was Sharpshooter's book Get the Edge at Craps, which the publisher sent to me to review. I vaguely recall some discussions about what the goal of a particular shot is (e.g. fewer sevens, more sixes and/or eights), but has any author ever explained in detail the mechanics of how a shot, his/her's or any shot, produces that result? IOW how is it that I can better my chances for a predictable result if I set the dice in a certain configuration, grip them a certain way, deliver them a certain way, and have them make contact with the table at a particular spot so that they make contact with the wall in a certain way?

    It just seems to me that all of the DI discussions start at the wrong end of the process, with the possible exception of Linaway and his safe/unsafe arrays. (By all accounts, however, Linaway doesn't get into set, grip, and the like and is therefore not directly involved with DI.) Shouldn't the DI-wannabe start with the goal (e.g. Linaway's arrays) and work backwards from wall contact to determine how best to achieve that goal?
     
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  2. von duck, Oct 11, 2019

    von duck

    von duck Member

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    It works like this. If I ain't throwin inside numbers with the "set" I'm usin, and I change sets, and then start throwin inside every other throw, then that means my set is good for inside numbers. A guy doesn't just throw inside numbers ya know, :confused: you gotta have the right set. :)
     
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  3. TDVegas, Oct 11, 2019

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    Then....you never change sets again. You've got it. That's your set from here on out. If you find you have to change that set again....then you never had anything except positive variance from the second set.

    Bazinga!! It's all in repetition, IMO.....not change.

    At least from my perspective.

    To Midnights point....Are you suggesting to have no specific goal (result) from the getgo but rather have the result (looking for potential bias) determine the set and toss? A form of reverse engineering?
     
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  4. lone irish digit, Oct 11, 2019

    lone irish digit

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    This is Barney

    The LIDS 2018 best selling book "The Game of Craps" resolves the DI toss from beginning to end, end to beginning, and middles to both end and beginning. It is mostest thorough book on the game of craps as well as thorough discussion on if the Night King was really killed.

    Also, he discussed dices sets with focus on safe and unsafe sex and benefits of the penicillin. The book is offered to all forum members for special price of 727 US dollars. Also, a copy of the bonertracker software is provided free of charge in the book but does require a small software fee of $335. Additionally, a file is provided free of charge with purchase of said book which can be used to file down finger tips to ensure dices flow smoothly and effortlessly from the so called DIs hand. Go to LIDs website for procurement of products before we run out of these most amazing stuff.
     
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  5. yacraps, Oct 12, 2019

    yacraps

    yacraps Member

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    Ive heard of Donny Millionaire and his systems...but I think the LIDs needs to procure a title for are Barney...wait for it... yep... BARNEY BILLIONAIRE and his Dices Systems :cool:
     
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  6. Mssthis1, Oct 12, 2019

    Mssthis1

    Mssthis1 Member

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    On the practice table using my favorite shooting position and toss. I end up with 2 dice face results that are slightly higher than random. The two faces facing the back wall, and Left die, right side, right die the side facing the back wall. It's been consistent for over a decade so I'm fairly confident in that.

    Unfortunately I can't take my practice table to the casino and the variables on casino tables are many times greater than the practice table that's perfectly level, always at the same temperature and has the same layout as it had 10 years ago.

    I still set the dice and execute a controlled shot but I have no expectations of every shoot being a long one or even better than random.
    That is where most people need to examine their goals. If you could get 12% return on your money in the market you'd be happy as a clam and if you started young you'd be a millionaire at retirement even starting out with a modest amount.

    At the craps table people tend to try to turn $100 in a million in one session instead of turning it into $112 and trying to slowly compound it. Normal variance will almost always get you if bankroll is low and your expectations are high.


    FWIW: The main reason I'm here is trip reports and to try to find out casino conditions. After seeing Randoms report I have a desire to go to Australia now. Yesterday, I didn't. I've completely changed where I stay and play at in Vegas the past few years because of casino reports and tips from forum members.
     
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  7. von duck, Oct 12, 2019

    von duck

    von duck Member

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    The table temperature at my casino is a constant 73.5 degrees. Is that good, or bad. Wouldn't being in Australia mess your shot up, I mean, everything is backwards down there, and you'd have to learn a whole bunch of new star constellations, so you could figure out how the table was oriented to the "galactic constant". Also, do you take in to account, your latitude, so you can make the proper gravitational adjustment, for the equatorial bulge, of the earth? Lot of guys miss that one. Another good idea, is to wear golf shoes when you're throwing, gives you a lot better footing, soft spikes are not as good, but draw less heat than, traditional steel spikes. :)
     
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  8. The Midnight Skulker, Oct 12, 2019

    The Midnight Skulker

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    I am unsure to whom these questions are addressed. They seem more descriptive of Mssthis1's approach.
    If I read the above correctly he (Yikes! I just realized I do not actually know Mssthis1's gender and must therefore beg forgiveness if I have guessed wrong.) started by developing a consistent throw, one that yielded a consistent enough ending configuration (result) from a known starting configuration (set) to warrant reverse engineering from a desired result back to the set necessary to achieve that result worth while. With this approach the actual actions the dice take do not need to be determined. Sounds reasonable to me, although as (wince) James Hall has opined it may not discover the optimal delivery, one that would give the practitioner an even greater advantage.
     
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  9. Mssthis1, Oct 13, 2019

    Mssthis1

    Mssthis1 Member

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    I'm a he. Gender is definitely something wannabe Di's should consider. Through keen observation I have found that a female with ample cleavage can get away with much more in the "grey area" tosses arena on a craps table than a male can. If you want to take up DI and aren't a female with ample cleavage, an operation to rectify that may be the first investment you want to make.


    That is still a work in process. For years I put 10's and 9's on those faces and hope for the best in live play. I have recently changed my thinking and now have 6's and 8's on those faces when playing for real money.

    1) The house edge is lower on those numbers so it takes less of an advantage to get into the green.

    2) Since those numbers are already occur more than outside numbers in a random game, volatility and variance will be lower.
     
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  10. TDVegas, Oct 13, 2019

    TDVegas

    TDVegas Member

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    So...excuse my ignorance, is the theory of DI based on using a set such as noted in the picture whereby the 6 and 1 are on the "side faces" (outside/inside) of the dice....thereby these faces will not show (or less chance)....?

    Two less 7's and no 2, 3, 11, 12 results?....in addition 3/1, 4/1, 5/1 are being eliminated (6 total combinations)

    In effect, we are eliminating 12 outcomes....?

    So, we have 24 potential outcomes and 4 chances for a 7. Still a 1 in 6 chance for a 7.

    Is this the basic gist of DI theory?....obviously presuming the dice in flight do not tumble, roll, in effect randomize, etc...whereby those side faces do not show topside?

    image.jpeg
     
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  11. HornHiYo, Oct 13, 2019

    HornHiYo

    HornHiYo Member

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    Bingo! That's the hardway set suggesting the IF you get 'em to stop looking like that and bet accordingly you have keys to the casino vault.
     
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  12. TDVegas, Oct 13, 2019

    TDVegas

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    So, hardway set is merely a way of trying to get those four outcomes (2/2, 3/3, 4/4, 5/5)....in effect 4 in 24 chances as opposed to the normal 4 in 36 chances?

    So....does this set present an issue for the other outcomes and their payoffs as it relates to still expecting to see a 7 every six rolls?

    Is it still negative expectation for other outcomes as it relates to the 7 showing every six rolls?

    Just thinking out loud here.
     
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  13. The Midnight Skulker, Oct 13, 2019

    The Midnight Skulker

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    They certainly don't teach THAT in the Obsidian Order DI classes!


    That is the theory behind on axis throwing: keep the side faces from showing, which incidentally reduces the number of outcomes for a successful throw to 16 (4x4), not 24.
     
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  14. HornHiYo, Oct 13, 2019

    HornHiYo

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    Yeah. Something has to replace the missing 1-6 seven out. Hopefully the 1-6 will be replaced with a box number IF the dice stop on axis.
     
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  15. TDVegas, Oct 13, 2019

    TDVegas

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    Ok....so I missed some outcomes that will not show if all goes well. Not 24 potential outcomes but 16.

    What did I miss?...6/3, etc?
     
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  16. TDVegas, Oct 13, 2019

    TDVegas

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    Ok, so “on axis” does not necessarily mean the dice have to stay glued together in flight but merely that the outside/inside faces must remain in that position during flight?
     
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  17. The Midnight Skulker, Oct 13, 2019

    The Midnight Skulker

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    Every outcome with either a 6 or a 1 (or obviously both). If you take two faces of a die "out of play" then there are four faces "in play". Just as the standard 36 outcomes are derived from 6x6, so the on-axis 16 outcomes are derived from 4x4.

    Technically, yes as I understand it. Practically, no by my own standard; they only have to end up not showing the either original side number. Keeping the dice "glued together" (i.e. rotating in concert) theoretically allows some modicum of face control in addition to axis control.

    I liken the successful throw to pitching a horseshoe. The goal is to have the shoe land flat with the open end facing the peg. My dad's throw started with the shoe flat, open end forward, and imparted a one-rotation horizontal spin. Other pitchers started with a different configuration depending on how much rotation they gave the shoe, but all the good ones I saw used a horizontal spin. Personally, I considered my throw a success if I survived it uninjured.
     
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  18. Dave G Ct, Oct 13, 2019

    Dave G Ct

    Dave G Ct Member

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    TD.

    What is important with the hardway set is that one die flipping over will not result.in a 7 out unlike the 3-V & 2-V sets. That is why people use this set. Only danger is one die advancing two turns DP 5-2 or 4-3
     
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  19. TDVegas, Oct 13, 2019

    TDVegas

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    Yes, I get the concept....which is probably is why I've long stated that if one can show himself the configuration "works".....why would he ever need to change.....well.....anything?

    Is this a case of it either works as theory might suggest....or it doesn't?

    What possible change or alteration could be suggested?...and why even "muddy" that water trying?

    Now my only caveat to all this is that I have yet to see (in slo mo) ANY evidence that the dice bouncing off the pyramids does NOT induce random twisting, turning or tumbling and in effect throwing them off that axis....aka, random results.

    While there might be some evidence to suggest a flat backed wall could keep the dice result on that axis....we don't get a flat backed wall. We get bumps. If someone tells me they can consistently miss the bumps and hit the small "bumper" where pyramid meets felt....I have not seen that video or evidence that this can be consistently achieved.

    No harm trying.
     
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  20. Liman

    Liman Member

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    Have you ever seen dice that don't tumble onto the side faces?

    I haven't.
     
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