$nakeEyes - 18 July 2011 06:35 PM

Hardeight - 18 July 2011 05:15 PM

Im in total agreement..dice setting is here to stay.Its kind of like the first pitcher in baseball to throw sidearm or the basketball player who threw his free throws underhanded.Its all about whats best for you but within the rules

Hardeight -

You are going to be in for a rude awakening when you attempt to play your ” dice setting is here to stay ” game when you are told by the boxman -

” No dice setting allowed ” -

I have not personally witnessed this -

However, being a member of PARR forums - this event is becoming more and more common !

Regarding cardcounting -

How do you expect to beat the casino at Blackjack if you do not know when the advantage swings towards the player and you then increase your bet(s) accordingly -

Anything else is simply ” Gambling ” !

I say you will be wrong.Like I said about my cheating theories that they have as insurance.The casino wants us to set dice because some people bet more on us than chicken feeders.

The Midnight Skulker - 18 July 2011 09:48 PM

jeremiahj - 16 July 2011 02:26 PM

... the bigger [casino] I work at in my city, we all split them. They get put into a box at our tables, then at an odd hour (4 AM), the pits take all of the tips out, and add them up. They then will divide that into however many dealers we have ^^

Is this division of the spoils done by shift or by 24-hour period?  The reason I ask is that I have seen houses change the toke bins at shift change, with the bins themselves being labeled “day”, “swing”, and “grave”.

Another question: at Foxwoods some dealers are designated as toke representatives, or something like that.  They participate in the counting process, presumably to verify that all tokes are being counted.  Do you have such dealer participation?

At Foxwoods, they are called the “Toke Committee”.  They are voted into the committee by other dealers and are responsible for the collection, counting, and distribution of tokes.  Foxwoods currently uses a weekly toke rate to determine dealer pay.

Of course, every casino is different and may or may not have a designated group to handle tokes (typically, size of the casino is a factor).

basicstrategy777 - 18 June 2011 03:02 PM

Hardeight, S.C has the facts, and he is correct. Base wage of 4.88 is very close to right and goes up about 50 cents for each additional game they can deal.  The make roughly another 15 dollars an hour with tips. We are talking CT. here.

Base pay goes up $0.25 in CT for each game they can deal.

To answer the OP, dealer school is usually a requirement, especially on craps.  But smaller casinos have been known to just throw people on a game because they were in a jam.  Many old school crap dealers learned on the game.

kaysirtap - 02 November 2011 10:51 AM

To answer the OP, dealer school is usually a requirement, especially on craps.  But smaller casinos have been known to just throw people on a game because they were in a jam.

Once at my usual haunt I walked up to an empty tub—a table partitioned off just past the prop area so it could be run by a single dealer—staffed by a dealer I did not recognize.  As I put my buy-in on the table she turned to a suit, whom I did know, and who in turn came over and ran the game until another dealer appeared and took over.  Obviously the newbie was just a placeholder, and for who knows what reason.  A medical emergency, perhaps?

Shortly after retiring I investigated becoming a dealer at a Native American casino that was about to expand its pit to introduce table games other than blackjack, which it already offered.  I was rather surprised to learn that their in-house training course took six weeks!  Upon reflection, though, I can understand the reason: there is much more to being a dealer than learning internal procedures and the games themselves (along with the mechanics for actually dealing them).  From conversations I have had with and overheard between dealers I gather a significant portion of the training involves detecting player cheating, something I probably still cannot appreciate.  After four decades on the outside I think I could deal a craps game, although the folks in Mission Control might have ripped out all of their hair by the end of my shift trying to figure out what I was doing.  I have to concede, however, that even though I could get both the house and the players what they deserved I would be vulnerable to shot takers and outright cheats, and that is the area where I would need and even welcome training.

The Midnight Skulker - 02 November 2011 11:53 AM

From conversations I have had with and overheard between dealers I gather a significant portion of the training involves detecting player cheating, something I probably still cannot appreciate.

I wouldn’t say that “detecting player cheating” is part of the training, but I would say that ensuring that procedures are followed to prevent cheating is certainly an important part.  And the rule is simple - keep live bets on the layout in your field of vision.  For craps, this just means keeping an eye on your own end.  You don’t follow the dice to the other end of the table, and you don’t look down the low cut shirt of a shooter reaching for dice that for some reason were only sent out as far as the Come.  Okay, when settling the line near the stick, you can’t keep an eye on any come bets or place bets in the register near the DC, but the stickman or boxperson hopefully has your back on that one.

kaysirtap - 02 November 2011 12:35 PM

... when settling the line near the stick, you can’t keep an eye on any come bets or place bets in the register near the DC, but the stickman or boxperson hopefully has your back on that one.

I have been told that the stick- and boxpersons each have “their end of the table” that they are responsible for watching during payoffs.  I have also been told that line payoffs are made from the outside in to avoid having the base dealer’s arms obstruct the view of bets yet to be paid by the responsible observer.

You have not said so explicitly but I gather you are, were, or trained to be a dealer.  Where?  (My guess, based on your “Toke Committee” response, is Foxwoods.)

The Midnight Skulker - 02 November 2011 12:53 PM

I have been told that the stick- and boxpersons each have “their end of the table” that they are responsible for watching during payoffs.  I have also been told that line payoffs are made from the outside in to avoid having the base dealer’s arms obstruct the view of bets yet to be paid by the responsible observer.

The stick’s end of the table is the side the dice land on (except if the dice rebound all the way back to the shooter’s side).  The boxperson’s end is the side the shooter is on.  This is because the stick is not permitted to take their eyes off the dice until they’re in middle of the table, so it makes sense that they’re watching that end while they are retrieving the dice.  The only variation in this is if the stick is a relatively weak dealer and there is heavy action on his/her end.  The box will usually instruct the stick to watch the less hectic side.

The Pass Line is settled from base to stick for the reason you mention - game security.  It is also the reason that base dealers must use their outside hand (furthest from the boxperson) to hand off change or payouts.

Back in the day, box men and dealers weren’t bashful about telling a dice setter to “pick ‘em up and shoot ‘em” if the shooter was so totally inept that they held up the game while fumbling around attempting to locate the 6-6 or 3-3 or whatever they were looking for. Generally there was a verbal warning. If the shooter continued to slow things down, a MUCH sterner warning was issued, and the shooter was warned that if they continued, the dice would be passed to the next shooter to finish out the “hand” and the setter would be banned from shooting at that time. I’ve been working a game several times (over the years) when this was actually done! I hate it because ALL the players get pissed at the employees. The last ten years or so it seems that the casinos have lightened up quite a bit. Now we tell the setters we don’t mind that they set the dice, but do it in a timely manner so we don’t slow the game down.

Rudeboy,
        this is correct.  Dice sets are fine with the house until you start winning.  Then the ball game changes.  If it appears to the house that your dice sets are working for you they will tell you “no more setting” just pick them up and toss them.  At that point collect your winnings and go to the next casino.

And as far as card counting in BJ, today’s game is completely different than years ago.  Now with the multiple decks and the only advantage card counters have is to incorporate ACE tracking into there game and watch the dealer shuffle and try to use the cut card to position the most aces into your cut as possible to give yourself the most BJ advantages.  If you cannot pull off this update to the old counting game than you are holding no advantage and you are just kidding yourself.

And another thing to remember.  When the house makes changes to games it is to protect there total advantage over the players.  From that point on it’s up to the players to exploit the new changes and come up with ways to get the advantage.  Problem is when the other 99% of the betting public finds out about it the house is on to it and waiting for some dumbass like yourself to come in and try it.  Problem is your bets vs your bankroll give you away every time.  To include how you got to the casino, how you are dressed, your watch, your room and etc.

Now I would advise against it but if you were to fly to England, Spain, or France.  Currently there is no law against card counting or using a device to aid in your decision making.  I.E. a binary card counter or a micro computer for timing the roulette wheel.  Now in the states you will get locked up with a max sentence but over seas you just get tossed.

I encounter dice setters and “control” shooters several times daily. I have yet to see one make an impact on the table consistently In every casino I’ve worked, the House will insist that ALL shooters get a bounce off the felt and both dice must rebound off the back wall. If the shooter gives me that, I’ll never hard-ass him over how they set the dice. My only complaint is don’t take a bunch of time doing it, don’t slow down the pace of the game.