To reiterate I generally do not play the P/L or the D/P unless I am the shooter and/or I am required to -

  I usually ” Place Inside ” for 3, 4, 5 throws on each shooter -

  Then - leave ‘em up for a ” bit ” or ” Take them down ” -

  My question is simply thus -

  Let’s say that the shooter is on their 6th roll - point established on roll #1 -

  At this point , hypothetically, I place a ” Don’t Pass Bet ” - in reality this is a ” Lay bet against the Point ” -

  Assuming we are at a $10 min table - my ” lay” or DP bet would be $10.- -

  The shooter throws again and there is no resolution of the point # -

  Can I increase my initial ” lay ” / ” D/P ” bet - from the original $10 to say $20 -

  I DO NOT WANT TO TAKE ODDS HERE - I WANT A 1-1 PAY-OFF -

  I DO NOT WANT TO RISK MORE THAN I MAY WIN ! -

  I am well aware that at ANYTIME one may elect to take down his ” LAY ” bets without any punitive action taken by the house/casino -

However, what is their attitude on me increasing my initial wager - 1, 2 possibly 3 or more times - depending upon the shooter’s results ?

The only time you can make a DPL bet is on the come out roll i.e. the puck is black.

You can make a lay bet at any time and you must pay the 5% vig. ( vig is 5% of what you would win )

Usually, you must lay enough. so that your minimum win is 20 dollars.

You will be paid true odds on the lay bet.

You can usually figure out what the rule in casino betting is by using what I call the “hammer rule”.

In your example, do you think the casino would allow you to make a DPL bet after the come out roll ? They do not want to give a player the hammer…..they do not want to give up the hammer. The would be giving you an advantage if they allowed you to make the DPL bet after the come out roll. Thay would be giving you the hammer. They would be at a disadvantage. They don’t like doing that.

777

basicstrategy777 - 20 July 2011 05:44 PM

The only time you can make a DPL bet is on the come out roll i.e. the puck is black.
You can make a lay bet at any time and you must pay the 5% vig. ( vig is 5% of what you would win )

Usually, you must lay enough. so that your minimum win is 20 dollars.

You will be paid true odds on the lay bet.

You can usually figure out what the rule in casino betting is by using what I call the “hammer rule”.

In your example, do you think the casino would allow you to make a DPL bet after the come out roll ? They do not want to give a player the hammer…..they do not want to give up the hammer. The would be giving you an advantage if they allowed you to make the DPL bet after the come out roll. Thay would be giving you the hammer. They would be at a disadvantage. They don’t like doing that.

777

  777 -

  You are incorrect -

  As a player can ” Place the point behind the line ”  thereby, circumventing the ” come-out roll advantage ” , likewise a player can ” Lay against the point ” in the opposite scenario -

As a for instance :  While at the Sands in Bethlehem, Pa. - a player made a DPL after the point # was established -

He placed his bet in the D/P area -

The dealer immediately placed a ” Lay Bet Button ” on the top of his bet -

The above scenario is samo - samo to a player making a P/L wager after the point is made -

  This in essence is a ” Place bet on the Point ” which is made ” behind the line ” -

  But is recognized by the dealer as such -

  In essence -

  Both bets circumvent the advantage / disadvantage of the come-out roll event -

  My initial question alludes to the fact -

  Is my bet now a place bet or a contract bet ???????

  As a place bet - with or vs the point -

  That bet can be increased/decreased/withdrawn/whatever at the players’ option -

  Now do you see my point ?

  The above being assumedly correct - I could treat that bet as a ” Place Bet ” and have total control over the same -

  Is that a correct assumption ?

$nakeEyes - 20 July 2011 08:50 PM

basicstrategy777 - 20 July 2011 05:44 PM

The only time you can make a DPL bet is on the come out roll i.e. the puck is black.
You can make a lay bet at any time and you must pay the 5% vig. ( vig is 5% of what you would win )

Usually, you must lay enough. so that your minimum win is 20 dollars.

You will be paid true odds on the lay bet.

You can usually figure out what the rule in casino betting is by using what I call the “hammer rule”.

In your example, do you think the casino would allow you to make a DPL bet after the come out roll ? They do not want to give a player the hammer…..they do not want to give up the hammer. The would be giving you an advantage if they allowed you to make the DPL bet after the come out roll. Thay would be giving you the hammer. They would be at a disadvantage. They don’t like doing that.

777

  777 -

  You are incorrect -

  As a player can ” Place the point behind the line ”  thereby, circumventing the ” come-out roll advantage ” , likewise a player can ” Lay against the point ” in the opposite scenario -

As a for instance :  While at the Sands in Bethlehem, Pa. - a player made a DPL after the point # was established -

He placed his bet in the D/P area -

The dealer immediately placed a ” Lay Bet Button ” on the top of his bet -

The above scenario is samo - samo to a player making a P/L wager after the point is made -

  This in essence is a ” Place bet on the Point ” which is made ” behind the line ” -

  But is recognized by the dealer as such -

  In essence -

  Both bets circumvent the advantage / disadvantage of the come-out roll event -

  My initial question alludes to the fact -

  Is my bet now a place bet or a contract bet ???????

  As a place bet - with or vs the point -

  That bet can be increased/decreased/withdrawn/whatever at the players’ option -

  Now do you see my point ?

  The above being assumedly correct - I could treat that bet as a ” Place Bet ” and have total control over the same -

  Is that a correct assumption ?

777 is correct.

DPL is a one to one bet. A lay bet is not. 

You cannot make a DPL bet after a point is established.  That is why the dealer put a lay button on the chip when it was place on the DPL after the point was established (or when the puck was white).  As 777 said, if making a DPL bet after the come out was allowed then the player would have the advantage.  You could skip the come out and hide from the 7 (7 you loose on the DPL) then place a DPL after the come out and now you are betting with the house on 1 to 1 odds. Hmm… I think I’d bet it every time… if I could.

When the dealer placed a lay button on his bet, does that mean the bet is a lay bet or a DPL bet ?

What do you think the payout will be on a bet that has a lay button on it….....1 to 1 or true odds ?

The only reason the house has an advantage on the DPL bet is because it MUST go thru the comeout roll.
After the comeout roll the DPL player has the advantage. He has the hammer. He will win more often than
he will lose, because the 7 is the dominent number and can be made no matter what # shows on 1 die.  Think about it…...why would the casino give the player the hammer ? Why would it give the player the advantage by allowing him to make a DPL bet after the comeout roll ?  Why does the casino allow the player to pick up his DPL bet at anytime ?  Because it is generous ? 

Why does the casino NOT allow you to pick up your PL bet after the come out roll ? Who has the hammer ?

If you place your chips ON the back line of the PL ( not behind the line but directly on the back line) , this bet is recognized as a place bet on the point by the dealer. This is not a PL bet but a place bet on the point.

Many casinos allow you to make a PUT bet. This is a bet where you place your chips on the PL after the point is established.
Why would a casino allow you to make a PUT bet ? Because it is generous ? Who has the hammer ? The PUT bet is treated exactly like a PL bet ; it is a contract bet; you missed the opportunity of winning on the 7/11 on the comeout and now locked yourself in a dis-advantaged position. You lose on a 7, the most dominent #.  The only reason to make a PUT bet instead of a place bet is if you ‘know’ you are going to roll the point and if you are going to take more than 5 X odds as that will pay more than a place bet for the same outlay. The PUT bet is not a place bet on the point as you say….it is treated the same way as a PL bet…...flat is contract, odds optional.

Whenever you have a question as to whether you can do something RE: betting in a casino, remember….....the casino will never relinquish an advantageous position…..the casino will never allow you to remove yourself from a dis-advantageous position.

Trust me.

777

$nakeEyes - 20 July 2011 08:50 PM

a player can ” Lay against the point ” in the opposite scenario -
As a for instance :  While at the Sands in Bethlehem, Pa. - a player made a DPL after the point # was established -
He placed his bet in the D/P area -  The dealer immediately placed a ” Lay Bet Button ” on the top of his bet -

Maybe you missed the dollar vig being paid. As someone who has laid the point after the comeout for more than 10 years, I say it seems you’re into semantics here. If you want to call it a don’t place bet, explain the bet and its odds.

In essence - Both bets circumvent the advantage / disadvantage of the come-out roll event

I wish. Lay bettors and don’t bettors pay heavily for the privilege of enjoying the seven—- after the comeout.

basicstrategy777 - 21 July 2011 06:51 AM

When the dealer placed a lay button on his bet, does that mean the bet is a lay bet or a DPL bet ?

What do you think the payout will be on a bet that has a lay button on it….....1 to 1 or true odds ?

The only reason the house has an advantage on the DPL bet is because it MUST go thru the comeout roll.
After the comeout roll the DPL player has the advantage. He has the hammer. He will win more often than
he will lose, because the 7 is the dominent number and can be made no matter what # shows on 1 die.  Think about it…...why would the casino give the player the hammer ? Why would it give the player the advantage by allowing him to make a DPL bet after the comeout roll ?  Why does the casino allow the player to pick up his DPL bet at anytime ?  Because it is generous ? 

Why does the casino NOT allow you to pick up your PL bet after the come out roll ? Who has the hammer ?

If you place your chips ON the back line of the PL ( not behind the line but directly on the back line) , this bet is recognized as a place bet on the point by the dealer. This is not a PL bet but a place bet on the point.

Many casinos allow you to make a PUT bet. This is a bet where you place your chips on the PL after the point is established.
Why would a casino allow you to make a PUT bet ? Because it is generous ? Who has the hammer ? The PUT bet is treated exactly like a PL bet ; it is a contract bet; you missed the opportunity of winning on the 7/11 on the comeout and now locked yourself in a dis-advantaged position. You lose on a 7, the most dominent #.  The only reason to make a PUT bet instead of a place bet is if you ‘know’ you are going to roll the point and if you are going to take more than 5 X odds as that will pay more than a place bet for the same outlay. The PUT bet is not a place bet on the point as you say….it is treated the same way as a PL bet…...flat is contract, odds optional.

Whenever you have a question as to whether you can do something RE: betting in a casino, remember….....the casino will never relinquish an advantageous position…..the casino will never allow you to remove yourself from a dis-advantageous position.

Trust me.

777

To:  777, idoc and Sancho Panza -

Guys,

I have no clue as to why I wrote what I did - or for that matter how the thought ever entered my mind -

Possibly a senior moment -

Possibly the heat got to me -

Possibly a little too much fire water to quench the heat -

Possibly all of the above -

Any how - regardless - my thinking cap was not on my head straight -

I should have picked up on my own obvious error when I mentioned that the dealer placed a ” Lay ” lammer on the bettor’s bet that was placed on the DPL after the point was established -

Obviously this was done to differentiate that bet from a bona fide DP wager -

This was probably easier for him to do this than move the bet behind the line where a normal lay bet would be placed -

Thought I had a pretty unique strategy going there -

That is,  until reality set in -

Oh well - back to the drawing board !

Thanks for the feedback and again my apologies for the momentary lapse of mentality .........

That’s when the gray matter becomes the brown stuff !

Rough estimate of dealers who prefer to leave the lay with the lammer as opposed to moving it in back of the number is 95 percent. That still leaves me wondering why when I say, “Take down my lay bet,” a goodly chunk of dealers start taking down my don’t come bets. Those moves are not in the usual mechanical repertory.

As for the lammers, I kid around that I’ve got a collection that Gary Loveman would envy.

SP…......so, you play the ricochet. How do you like it ?

SE…...no problemo. everyone incurs a brain fart from time to time.

777

basicstrategy777 - 23 July 2011 10:27 AM

SP…......so, you play the ricochet. How do you like it ?

Good when it wins. Not so much when it loses. What else is new?

It does tend, as the math folks say, to limit the swings either way. And once the dealers get to understand it, they’re OK with it (and the tokes) as long as it doesn’t cost them too much work.

It does do better than other strategies or programs or systems I’ve tried like perpetual craps and mini-max.

SP…......I know you have considered the doey-don’t. It seems to me it carries the lowest vig and the loss would not be as severe.

You have tried both ( sim & actual play ) and found the Ric the better way to go ?

Thax.

777

basicstrategy777 - 23 July 2011 12:53 PM

SP…......I know you have considered the doey-don’t. It seems to me it carries the lowest vig and the loss would not be as severe. You have tried both ( sim & actual play ) and found the Ric the better way to go?

To me they’re roughly the same. But there is a noticeable difference in reactions by the casino and the other players between doey-don’t and ricochet. Maybe the ricochet is more subtle or harder for the ignorati to figure out what’s going on.

basicstrategy777 - 23 July 2011 12:53 PM

SP…......I know you have considered the doey-don’t. It seems to me it carries the lowest vig and the loss would not be as severe. You have tried both ( sim & actual play ) and found the Ric the better way to go ?

Reading Shank’s thorough explanation from his blog, as reposted on another forum, I would now have to say the preference is to the Ric.

Sancho Panza - 08 August 2011 01:50 PM

basicstrategy777 - 23 July 2011 12:53 PM

SP…......I know you have considered the doey-don’t. It seems to me it carries the lowest vig and the loss would not be as severe. You have tried both ( sim & actual play ) and found the Ric the better way to go ?

Reading Shank’s thorough explanation from his blog, as reposted on another forum, I would now have to say the preference is to the Ric.

Sancho….....Are you saying with the Ric the vig would be lower and the loss less severe than with the doey-don’t.

What am I missing ?

777

basicstrategy777 - 08 August 2011 03:36 PM

Are you saying with the Ric the vig would be lower and the loss less severe than with the doey-don’t.

I’m not doing the saying. But Alan has always been critical of the doey-don’t and in a long discussion on paying for variance with the house advantage posts this:
“Has anyone heard of the “doey-don’t”? It is a system that damps out almost all variance on the comeout roll, in order to get past its disadvantage for the Don’t Pass and lay odds on points, where the player is more likely to win and the casino pays true odds. This is how it works:

comeout: bet equal amounts on pass and don’t pass
these will offset each other exactly, except for the 12
point established: the flat portions will always offset each other after a point is established; the player can then either take or lay odds in whatever multiples he/she wants, up to the maximum the casino allows

I believe the original idea was to lay odds on the DP.

The basic problem with this system, in my view, is that you are subject to the HA on BOTH bets. This is true of any hedge using partially-offsetting bets. I describe the doey-don’t here only to illustrate a point about variance.

Let’s look at only the flat-bet part of the doey-don’t; it is the ultimate in low variance. In fact, you can NEVER win, only lose the pass on the 12. The expected value is about -1.4% of THE SUM of the two bets, and the standard deviation is 0.08 of the sum of both bets. The only variation comes from the random appearance of the 12. Any session of playing this way would have a range from zero (if the twelve never showed) to a loss equal to the bet unit times the number of twelves that showed on the comeout.

Of course, presumably no one would ever play this way; I’m just using it as an illustration of why variance is necessary in order for the player to have any chance to break even or win.”

I’ve never seen him or others go after the Ric the same way, not even in my prolonged tussle with him toward the end of 2008.

Sancho Panza - 08 August 2011 07:37 PM

basicstrategy777 - 08 August 2011 03:36 PM

Are you saying with the Ric the vig would be lower and the loss less severe than with the doey-don’t.

I’m not doing the saying. But Alan has always been critical of the doey-don’t and in a long discussion on paying for variance with the house advantage posts this:
“Has anyone heard of the “doey-don’t”? It is a system that damps out almost all variance on the comeout roll, in order to get past its disadvantage for the Don’t Pass and lay odds on points, where the player is more likely to win and the casino pays true odds. This is how it works:

comeout: bet equal amounts on pass and don’t pass
these will offset each other exactly, except for the 12
point established: the flat portions will always offset each other after a point is established; the player can then either take or lay odds in whatever multiples he/she wants, up to the maximum the casino allows

I believe the original idea was to lay odds on the DP.

The basic problem with this system, in my view, is that you are subject to the HA on BOTH bets. This is true of any hedge using partially-offsetting bets. I describe the doey-don’t here only to illustrate a point about variance.

Let’s look at only the flat-bet part of the doey-don’t; it is the ultimate in low variance. In fact, you can NEVER win, only lose the pass on the 12. The expected value is about -1.4% of THE SUM of the two bets, and the standard deviation is 0.08 of the sum of both bets. The only variation comes from the random appearance of the 12. Any session of playing this way would have a range from zero (if the twelve never showed) to a loss equal to the bet unit times the number of twelves that showed on the comeout.

Of course, presumably no one would ever play this way; I’m just using it as an illustration of why variance is necessary in order for the player to have any chance to break even or win.”

I’ve never seen him or others go after the Ric the same way, not even in my prolonged tussle with him toward the end of 2008.

Sancho….....As you know, the only time the Don’t player is at a disadvantage is on the come out.

Tha lay vig is 5% , which is twice the doey-don’t…..and you can’t lose money on the doey-don’t except for the 12,
which comes up once in 36 rolls. ( you can lose a ‘ton’ on the lay, when it loses ).

‘Crooked shot’ hasn’t said anything to convince me. Without doing the pick and shovel work into the bowels of the math, the surface arguement of vig, and amount that can be lost, tells me the doey-don’t is superior.

777