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Let’s say you were betting the pass line with 5x odds… and right next to you is a guy betting the don’t pass and laying 5x odds.
Wouldn’t it make sense to whisper to this guy, “hey, let’s just make these bets between ourselves, and we’ll both push on a come-out 12”?
This should now give the Pass bettor a positive expected value on his bet. To the other guy, it wouldn’t make a difference. You’d have to be discreet about it, I suppose. Hopefully, you’d still have a place bet or something so you’re not just standing at the table… and this would give the casino its edge back. I don’t know what the other guy would do. But I make side bets like this with a friend of mine sometimes when we’re in the vicinity of a roulette table. Perhaps that’s a bit different since we are never actually at the table. I don’t know if a stranger would agree to something like this. And of course, it works if you’re the don’t bettor if you agree that the DP wins on the 12.
Actually I have offered this to many shooters who are shooting for a point 10 and i lay it. I always ask if the player wants some side action because side action would be even money for me and my current bet only pays me half. No one has even taken that action for any amount!
They must know they are a huge dog on hitting the 4 and want to mitigate there losses…hahaha
So you think you think there is a craps bet or combination of bets that will eliminate the house edge ?
That’s not quite what I wrote… I simply meant that by eliminating the house from the equation, you could also eliminate the negative expected value on your bet by making what would be then considered “side bets” with a player who is betting the opposite as you (Pass vs. Don’t Pass), provided that you alter the rules of the come out roll such that if you are the Pass player, you agree that you both push on the 12 (or aces, depending on where you are), or if you are the Don’t Pass player, you agree that the 12 (or aces) are a winner. By doing so, you would have a positive expected value on your bet, while the other person sees no difference (and no rating from the casino, for that matter).
Let’s say you were betting the pass line with 5x odds… and right next to you is a guy betting the don’t pass and laying 5x odds.
Wouldn’t it make sense to whisper to this guy, “hey, let’s just make these bets between ourselves, and we’ll both push on a come-out 12”?
This should now give the Pass bettor a positive expected value on his bet. To the other guy, it wouldn’t make a difference. You’d have to be discrete about it, I suppose. Hopefully, you’d still have a place bet or something so you’re not just standing at the table… and this would give the casino its edge back. I don’t know what the other guy would do. But I make side bets like this with a friend of mine sometimes when we’re in the vicinity of a roulette table. Perhaps that’s a bit different since we are never actually at the table. I don’t know if a stranger would agree to something like this. And of course, it works if you’re the don’t bettor if you agree that the DP wins on the 12.
Just a thought.
Bear this in mind -
When you TAKE odds you get paid at the rate of either 2 to 1 ( 4 and 10), 3 to 2 ( 5 and 9 ) or 6 to 5 ( 6 and 8 ) -
However -
When you LAY the odds - you get paid 1 to 2 ( 4 and 10 ), 2 to 3 ( 5 and 9 ) and 5 to 6 ( 6 and 8 ) -
The LAY bettor - because he supposedly has the advantage after a point # is established - bets MORE to win LE$$ -
When you TAKE odds you get paid at the rate of either 2 to 1 ( 4 and 10), 3 to 2 ( 5 and 9 ) or 6 to 5 ( 6 and 8 ) -
However -
When you LAY the odds - you get paid 1 to 2 ( 4 and 10 ), 2 to 3 ( 5 and 9 ) and 5 to 6 ( 6 and 8 ) -
The LAY bettor - because he supposedly has the advantage after a point # is established - bets MORE to win LE$$ -
They have all the angles covered !
At least - so they think, anyhow !
I’m sorry, I don’t understand your point. Can you elaborate on how this covers any angles?
The casinos might be in the ” gambling ” business -
However, the one thing that they do Not do -
Is ” gamble ” !
ALL the games have a built in ” House Advantage ” -
Except the game of BlackJack !
Actually, casinos are in the entertainment business. And unless you’re playing a different variation than what I’m used to seeing, Blackjack has a house edge too. If you’re talking about counting cards, we can debate whether or not it actually eliminates house edge, or the counter simply takes advantage of a time when the house has a higher probability of losing and bets more.
But okay… how does any of this relate to the original idea in the first post? The proposed idea eliminates house edge and creates a positive expected value on your Pass/Don’t Pass bet.
When you TAKE odds you get paid at the rate of either 2 to 1 ( 4 and 10), 3 to 2 ( 5 and 9 ) or 6 to 5 ( 6 and 8 ) -
However -
When you LAY the odds - you get paid 1 to 2 ( 4 and 10 ), 2 to 3 ( 5 and 9 ) and 5 to 6 ( 6 and 8 ) -
The LAY bettor - because he supposedly has the advantage after a point # is established - bets MORE to win LE$$ -
They have all the angles covered !
At least - so they think, anyhow !
I’m sorry, I don’t understand your point. Can you elaborate on how this covers any angles?
The casinos might be in the ” gambling ” business -
However, the one thing that they do Not do -
Is ” gamble ” !
ALL the games have a built in ” House Advantage ” -
Except the game of BlackJack !
Actually, casinos are in the entertainment business. But okay… but how does any of this relate to the original idea in the first post? The proposed idea eliminates house edge and creates a positive expected value on your Pass/Don’t Pass bet.
Looks good on paper -
But will not work in the real world -
Your ” buddy ” is betting 2x to win 1X - , 3X to win 2X or 6X to win 5X - he has the short end of the stick - but the ” suppossed ” advantage -
You are betting 1X to win 2X, 2x to win 3X or 5X to win 6X - dependent upon the odds TAKEN - and you have the ” supposed ” dis-advantage -
Your ” buddy ” is betting 2x to win 1X - , 3X to win 2X or 6X to win 5X - he has the short end of the stick - but the ” suppossed ” advantage -
You are betting 1X to win 2X, 2x to win 3X or 5X to win 6X - dependent upon the odds TAKEN - and you have the ” supposed ” dis-advantage -
Do the math !
Apples and oranges !
Let me get my calculator… Okay, in the original post, I said that you had taken 5x odds on a Pass Line bet and the guy next to you has a Don’t Pass also with 5x odds. Seems to me that this bet should be a wash. Point is 6, and you’ve got $5 flat with $25 odds, while the “buddy” has $5 flat with $30 odds. You win, you get paid $35 total. He wins, he gets 30 total. And the calculator agrees.
I’ve done the math!
Oh… unless you’re unfamiliar with the terminology of odds multipliers on the don’t side. A 5x lay odds is not 5x the flat bet in terms of what you are actually betting. 5x lay odds represents what you can win. For example, laying double odds on the 6 or 8 with a flat bet of $5 will cost $12, not $10. Maybe this is why you’re confused? You see… 5x odds does not calculate your wager the same way on the Pass Line as it does on the Don’t Pass. It’s apples and oranges.
When you TAKE odds you get paid at the rate of either 2 to 1 ( 4 and 10), 3 to 2 ( 5 and 9 ) or 6 to 5 ( 6 and 8 ) -
However -
When you LAY the odds - you get paid 1 to 2 ( 4 and 10 ), 2 to 3 ( 5 and 9 ) and 5 to 6 ( 6 and 8 ) -
The LAY bettor - because he supposedly has the advantage after a point # is established - bets MORE to win LE$$ -
They have all the angles covered !
At least - so they think, anyhow !
I’m sorry, I don’t understand your point. Can you elaborate on how this covers any angles?
The casinos might be in the ” gambling ” business -
However, the one thing that they do Not do -
Is ” gamble ” !
ALL the games have a built in ” House Advantage ” -
Except the game of BlackJack !
Actually, casinos are in the entertainment business. But okay… but how does any of this relate to the original idea in the first post? The proposed idea eliminates house edge and creates a positive expected value on your Pass/Don’t Pass bet.
Looks good on paper -
But will not work in the real world -
Your ” buddy ” is betting 2x to win 1X - , 3X to win 2X or 6X to win 5X - he has the short end of the stick - but the ” suppossed ” advantage -
You are betting 1X to win 2X, 2x to win 3X or 5X to win 6X - dependent upon the odds TAKEN - and you have the ” supposed ” dis-advantage -
Do the math !
Apples and oranges !
Let me get my calculator… Okay, in the original post, I said that you had taken 5x odds on a Pass Line bet and the guy next to you has a Don’t Pass also with 5x odds. Seems to me that this bet should be a wash. Point is 6, and you’ve got $5 flat with $25 odds, while the “buddy” has $5 flat with $30 odds. You win, you get paid $35 total. He wins, he gets 30 total. And the calculator agrees.
I’ve done the math!
Oh… unless you’re unfamiliar with the terminology of odds multipliers on the don’t side. A 5x lay odds is not 5x the flat bet in terms of what you are actually betting. 5x lay odds represents what you can win. For example, laying double odds on the 6 or 8 with a flat bet of $5 will cost $12, not $10. Maybe this is why you’re confused? You see… 5x odds does not calculate your wager the same way on the Pass Line as it does on the Don’t Pass. It’s apples and oranges.
Okay -
So what is the point in going to the casino ?
Save your gas money , stay off your feet - pop open a cold one -
After all is said and done - and your calculator will bear this out -
You broke even -
So what’s YOUR point in this betting method / strategy -
You can achieve the exact same results ( without the 12 on the CO factor ) by standing at the table and watching people bet !
I am confused !
Perhaps I missed something in your original post or elsewhere along the line !
Save your gas money , stay off your feet - pop open a cold one -
After all is said and done - and your calculator will bear this out -
You broke even -
So what’s YOUR point in this betting method / strategy -
You can achieve the exact same results ( without the 12 on the CO factor ) by standing at the table and watching people bet !
I am confused !
Perhaps I missed something in your original post or elsewhere along the line !
Yes, that is true… except the 12 on the CO factor is huge. The 12 on the CO factor is the basis for the entire idea. You may think that it’s only 1 of 36 combinations of the dice, but that single combination on the come-out is enough to swing the edge into the player’s favor if it pushed on the Pass or paid on the Don’t Pass. If the casino said to me that they’ll ignore the 12 on the CO… or pay me for it on the don’ts, I’d be in front of a craps table right now instead of this computer. You wouldn’t even have to worry about dice control if that was the case.
Save your gas money , stay off your feet - pop open a cold one -
After all is said and done - and your calculator will bear this out -
You broke even -
So what’s YOUR point in this betting method / strategy -
You can achieve the exact same results ( without the 12 on the CO factor ) by standing at the table and watching people bet !
I am confused !
Perhaps I missed something in your original post or elsewhere along the line !
Yes, that is true… except the 12 on the CO factor is huge. The 12 on the CO factor is the basis for the entire idea. You may think that it’s only 1 of 36 combinations of the dice, but that single combination on the come-out is enough to swing the edge into the player’s favor if it pushed on the Pass or paid on the Don’t Pass. If the casino said to me that they’ll ignore the 12 on the CO… or pay me for it on the don’ts, I’d be in front of a craps table right now instead of this computer. You wouldn’t even have to worry about dice control if that was the case.
Listen kid, I like you -
You also have a vivid imagination - I admire that, too -
The CO 12 is a loser for the PL and a push for the DP -
UNLESS a hop 12 bet was made for each and every CO roll -
Out of curiosity -
Just exactly where are we going with this ” hypothetical betting scenario ” anyhow ?
You also have a vivid imagination - I admire that, too -
The CO 12 is a loser for the PL and a push for the DP -
UNLESS a hop 12 bet was made for each and every CO roll -
Out of curiosity -
Just exactly where are we going with this ” hypothetical betting scenario ” anyhow ?
Thanks, $nakeEye$, I like you too.
I understand the standard rules for a Craps game very well. So I am aware that a CO 12 is a loser for the PL and a push for the DP (provided it’s not aces instead).
Please read the original post carefully. I am not suggesting that you talk the casinos into changing the established rules of the game. Where I was going was… IF there was someone on the table who was betting EXACTLY the opposite of what you were betting in terms of Pass/Don’t Pass AND odds, you could potentially get a positive expected value of your bets as long as you agreed to make these bets between yourselves (not on the table), AND you also agreed to change the rules for a 12 on the come-out so that it’s either a push for both of you (advantage for the Pass), or a win on the Don’t Pass (advantage for the Don’t Pass).
The whole reason I brought it up was because in all the time I’ve spent at a Craps table, I have never seen anyone try to work out this kind of a deal. I have, however, seen the “Oddsman’s bet”, as MS posted.
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