Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 26 December 2011 03:35 PM

I have explained what I have seen in my own time in earlier posts in this thread.

G7, I’m just trying to explain to you that usually, employees on the gaming floor are not trying to mess with you because you are a high roller or you are winning.  This is especially true of the dealers.  You don’t have to believe me if you don’t want to.  If you think you are experiencing heat, it is likely that there is an explanation for it other than you bet a lot or you win a lot.  And under no circumstances should you yell at anyone in the casino because of something that may not be what it seems to you. 

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 26 December 2011 03:35 PM

I guess are betting amounts differ enough to see 2 different sides of the craps staff.

If you think that I haven’t personally experienced how high rollers are treated by the craps staff, you’d be wrong.

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 26 December 2011 02:50 PM

by beating the house over and over again. 

Remember the house wants to beat you out of your 500 buy in from the 99%ers in the casino.  The are scared of the 1%er who is a max table bettor.  Out of 9 people at the table and you have a 1%er and someone goes on a run, well the house could loose it’s entire quarter earnings on one chicken feeder who rolls for 45 mins.  That’s why.

the random chicken feeder might turn his 500 bucks into 5k and think he is on top of the world.  That 1%er just hit the house for 10 mil.

Dude Id like to play at a table with you sometime!!

kaysirtap - 26 December 2011 04:50 PM

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 26 December 2011 03:35 PM

I have explained what I have seen in my own time in earlier posts in this thread.

G7, I’m just trying to explain to you that usually, employees on the gaming floor are not trying to mess with you because you are a high roller or you are winning.  This is especially true of the dealers.  You don’t have to believe me if you don’t want to.  If you think you are experiencing heat, it is likely that there is an explanation for it other than you bet a lot or you win a lot.  And under no circumstances should you yell at anyone in the casino because of something that may not be what it seems to you. 

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 26 December 2011 03:35 PM

I guess are betting amounts differ enough to see 2 different sides of the craps staff.

If you think that I haven’t personally experienced how high rollers are treated by the craps staff, you’d be wrong.

Here is a little blurp on how Vegas treats its most famous dice high roller.

http://www.pokernews.com/m/news/3912.htm

So winning craps, millions in reserve, and no fear with your bets = a ban or in Archies case different rules for the game or no action.

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 12:03 PM

Here is a little blurp on how Vegas treats its most famous dice high roller.

http://www.pokernews.com/m/news/3912.htm

So winning craps, millions in reserve, and no fear with your bets = a ban or in Archies case different rules for the game or no action.

Where in this story does it say that the dealers, floor supervisors, or any other gaming personnel tried to ice Archie down by changing the pace of the game or break his timing?  Where in this story does it say that it was okay to yell at the dealers?

Allowing only flats was mistreatment by the casino, I can agree with that.  But you cannot use rare and isolated incidents to generalize the casino business as a whole.  You cannot even use them to generalize treatment towards players with very high action.  Refusing a customer’s business for any reason is not the same as “trying to get into a player’s head”.

Honestly G7, I don’t really know what point you’re trying to get across anymore.  If you want to continue this conversation, please tell me what your point is.

Only point is I have exp what I will call messing with my timing or my head.

I even had a casino dealer at paradise island cheered when I rolled a 4 when I had a $2500 lay 4 bet.  I was so mad I had to walk away for 15 mins and grab a beer and cool off. 

Another time at CP AC when it was my turn to shoot I was counting out my lay bet amount and placing my don’t pass table min bet.  I look up and the guy to my left has the dice and they are flying down the table.  The stick purposely skipped my turn and then told me don’t worry about it he would back the dice up to me.  Meanwhile I had already called out my lay bet and placed my don’t pass while some random chicken feeder tossed the dice.  I had more to loose on that roll than the guy shooting the dice brought to the casino with him.

I just posted this because my feeling is when the house is kicking everyone ass the staff is unhappy because they are not getting tips because everyone is broke.  Now on the other hand when someone gets hot and people start winning small amounts (around 5k to the entire table) the tips start coming and the dealers are happy.  The box man and pit boss are still happy because they know the dipshits at the table will just end up pumping that 5k they paid out right back to them with little to no risk on the house part.

Now you are the player at the table that has a 1k bet mins starts kicking the houses ass with high percentage bets.  Now the pitboss it only watching this table which makes the box man uneasy which in turn makes the dealers uneasy because there bosses are watching every move they make.  Now we all know these guys are tight knit groups and when everyone is stressed out because the house is loosing and everyone is on edge.  And we also have to amagine in any business they have fail safes to limit there losses.  And they have to do this to watch the tapes and make sure you are not cheating.  So by icing you or skipping your turn these tactics end up getting you angry, off your game, and making it personal against the house.  Edge house.

I am not sure if you have ever seen “the Cooler” its a awesome movie and I for one believe old school Vegas still uses these guys in addition to what I mentioned.

And when it comes to treatment of the dealers if I feel they are purposely messing with me or cheering for me to loose than yes I feel I have the right to let them know exactly how I feel about those tactics.  You might not agree with it but I am not trying to win a popularity contest I am there to take there money and they are going to do everything in there power to protect against it.

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

And when it comes to treatment of the dealers if I feel they are purposely messing with me or cheering for me to loose than yes I feel I have the right to let them know exactly how I feel about those tactics.  You might not agree with it but I am not trying to win a popularity contest I am there to take there money and they are going to do everything in there power to protect against it.

You’ve hit the nail on the head about who is messing with you.  It isn’t the casino, its the dealers.  Why would they mess with you?  Well, let’s see… they are at work.. they would rather be off having fun, but there they are.  They are a group of people who generally know each other, they do not know you… you are they outsider.  With that in mind, its all about first impressions.  You walk up to THEIR table and start messing with THEIR game… ok, if they are already bored or annoyed, gears start to grind.  Thats specifically the reason I come in and start something to break the boredom and hopefully make a good impression on them.. so that I don’t start grinding their gears and become their target.  You see, I’m retired from a supervisory position at one of those wonderful Fortune 500 companies, so I’ve seen the scenario day in and day out for years.  You don’t have to give them a tip.. I never do until its my roll anyway.. just a friendly joke.. a compliment.  Heck, if you can’t be original let me give you an old standby… when you get your chip, note to the dealer that you’ve noticed that you’re pretty certain that the dice are marked.  Don’t complain, be polite.  Even if you’re a darkside bettor, what would it hurt to pull for the guy throwing the dice to make his point.  You cheering won’t change what actually happens, and the dealers will think you are the nicest guy at the table, unlike most darksiders who are too quiet and too into themselves.  Be having a good time on the outside, even if your work is crumbling inside.  The dealers will like you and they won’t mess with you.  Also works when calling a customer service department.  Nice friendly people get help faster… pompous foul-mouths may spend several minutes on hold.

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

Only point is I have exp what I will call messing with my timing or my head.

I even had a casino dealer at paradise island cheered when I rolled a 4 when I had a $2500 lay 4 bet.  I was so mad I had to walk away for 15 mins and grab a beer and cool off.

While sharing excitement with players is permitted, it is quite obvious to dealers that they should not be cheering when a customer is losing.  If everyone were playing the Pass Line, nobody would have a problem with dealers cheering.  But you have a right to be upset at the dealer in this situation.  What this dealer did was unprofessional… but I’m sure you’re aware that it doesn’t happen all that often. 

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

Another time at CP AC when it was my turn to shoot I was counting out my lay bet amount and placing my don’t pass table min bet.  I look up and the guy to my left has the dice and they are flying down the table.  The stick purposely skipped my turn…

You don’t know for a fact that the stick purposely skipped you.  All you know for a fact is that you got skipped.  This can happen accidentally.  Even if it was a conscious decision to skip you, you don’t know for a fact that it was because he/she wanted to ice you down or get into your head.  Sometimes dealers get into the mindset that Don’t players don’t like to shoot the dice… and many of them don’t… but players should be asked if they want to shoot regardless if they have passed the dice the previous 100 times they were offered.  Who knows why you were skipped.

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

...and then told me don’t worry about it he would back the dice up to me.

I’m sure you know that this is true.

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

Meanwhile I had already called out my lay bet and placed my don’t pass while some random chicken feeder tossed the dice.  I had more to loose on that roll than the guy shooting the dice brought to the casino with him.

If the dice landed before you could say anything and a decision was made on one of your bets, I’m sure a reasonable discussion with the box or floor supervisor would get a ruling in your favor.  Just simply explain that you intended to bet on your roll, not someone else’s.  If you had been betting the same way on all of the previous shooters, or you’ve already been labeled as a shot-taker, you’d have a hard time making this case, though.  My advice to you is… if this ever happens to you again, just quickly blurt out “no action on all of my bets”.  If neither the dealers nor the box confirm this request before the dice land, you have a much stronger argument when you tell them that you only wanted to bet on your roll.

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

I just posted this because my feeling is when the house is kicking everyone ass the staff is unhappy because they are not getting tips because everyone is broke.

Generally true

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

Now on the other hand when someone gets hot and people start winning small amounts (around 5k to the entire table) the tips start coming and the dealers are happy.

Also generally true

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

The box man and pit boss are still happy because they know the dipshits at the table will just end up pumping that 5k they paid out right back to them with little to no risk on the house part.

Doubtful that they are actually thinking this or it makes them happy, but they know this anyway.  Just so you know, boxpeople and floor supervisors are much closer to the rank of dealers than you might think.  In many cases, they are dual-rates… which means they hold two different positions (in this case a dealer/supervisor).  The reason I’m telling you this is because the box and floor supervisor could really care less if the table is winning or losing.  Some pit supervisors may care… but some may not.

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

Now you are the player at the table that has a 1k bet mins starts kicking the houses ass with high percentage bets.  Now the pitboss it only watching this table which makes the box man uneasy which in turn makes the dealers uneasy because there bosses are watching every move they make.

Nope… that’s not how it works.  While higher level supervisors may wish to see what’s going on at the table, employees don’t catch heat from other employees unless they are doing something wrong - like cheating or making many mistakes.  Just because there is a chain of command there does not mean that a pit boss is the dealer’s boss (meaning that pit bosses generally do not have the authority to fire someone).  There is usually no reason for the box to feel uneasy just because a pit boss is watching.  You are misunderstanding the dynamics between casino employees. 

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

Now we all know these guys are tight knit groups and when everyone is stressed out because the house is loosing and everyone is on edge.

Again, aside from some smaller market casinos that really sweat the money (and even then, neither dealers nor floors will care) - hardly anyone from dealer to pit boss is stressing out about table losses. 

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

So by icing you or skipping your turn these tactics end up getting you angry, off your game, and making it personal against the house.  Edge house.

This is your perception… you don’t know for a fact that anything you perceive as an act to ice you down, get you angry, or off your game is actually happening with the purpose to screw with you.

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

I am not sure if you have ever seen “the Cooler” its a awesome movie and I for one believe old school Vegas still uses these guys in addition to what I mentioned.

I have seen it, and while I like William H. Macy, I thought this movie was terrible.  I can’t speak for every casino in the country… but for the most part, I’m pretty sure the days of physically beating up people are over.  That’s why they call it “old school Vegas”. 

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

And when it comes to treatment of the dealers if I feel they are purposely messing with me or cheering for me to loose than yes I feel I have the right to let them know exactly how I feel about those tactics.  You might not agree with it but I am not trying to win a popularity contest I am there to take there money and they are going to do everything in there power to protect against it.

You absolutely have a right to let dealers know how you feel if they have upset you.  But that does not give you permission to yell at anybody.  Even the dealer who cheered your loss on the $2500 lay should not be yelled at.

kaysirtap - 27 December 2011 06:02 PM

I can’t speak for every casino in the country…

kay, do you speak for one or more casinos?

kaysirtap - 27 December 2011 06:02 PM

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

Only point is I have exp what I will call messing with my timing or my head.

I even had a casino dealer at paradise island cheered when I rolled a 4 when I had a $2500 lay 4 bet.  I was so mad I had to walk away for 15 mins and grab a beer and cool off.

While sharing excitement with players is permitted, it is quite obvious to dealers that they should not be cheering when a customer is losing.  If everyone were playing the Pass Line, nobody would have a problem with dealers cheering.  But you have a right to be upset at the dealer in this situation.  What this dealer did was unprofessional… but I’m sure you’re aware that it doesn’t happen all that often. 

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

Another time at CP AC when it was my turn to shoot I was counting out my lay bet amount and placing my don’t pass table min bet.  I look up and the guy to my left has the dice and they are flying down the table.  The stick purposely skipped my turn…

You don’t know for a fact that the stick purposely skipped you.  All you know for a fact is that you got skipped.  This can happen accidentally.  Even if it was a conscious decision to skip you, you don’t know for a fact that it was because he/she wanted to ice you down or get into your head.  Sometimes dealers get into the mindset that Don’t players don’t like to shoot the dice… and many of them don’t… but players should be asked if they want to shoot regardless if they have passed the dice the previous 100 times they were offered.  Who knows why you were skipped.

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

...and then told me don’t worry about it he would back the dice up to me.

I’m sure you know that this is true.

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

Meanwhile I had already called out my lay bet and placed my don’t pass while some random chicken feeder tossed the dice.  I had more to loose on that roll than the guy shooting the dice brought to the casino with him.

If the dice landed before you could say anything and a decision was made on one of your bets, I’m sure a reasonable discussion with the box or floor supervisor would get a ruling in your favor.  Just simply explain that you intended to bet on your roll, not someone else’s.  If you had been betting the same way on all of the previous shooters, or you’ve already been labeled as a shot-taker, you’d have a hard time making this case, though.  My advice to you is… if this ever happens to you again, just quickly blurt out “no action on all of my bets”.  If neither the dealers nor the box confirm this request before the dice land, you have a much stronger argument when you tell them that you only wanted to bet on your roll.

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

I just posted this because my feeling is when the house is kicking everyone ass the staff is unhappy because they are not getting tips because everyone is broke.

Generally true

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

Now on the other hand when someone gets hot and people start winning small amounts (around 5k to the entire table) the tips start coming and the dealers are happy.

Also generally true

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

The box man and pit boss are still happy because they know the dipshits at the table will just end up pumping that 5k they paid out right back to them with little to no risk on the house part.

Doubtful that they are actually thinking this or it makes them happy, but they know this anyway.  Just so you know, boxpeople and floor supervisors are much closer to the rank of dealers than you might think.  In many cases, they are dual-rates… which means they hold two different positions (in this case a dealer/supervisor).  The reason I’m telling you this is because the box and floor supervisor could really care less if the table is winning or losing.  Some pit supervisors may care… but some may not.

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

Now you are the player at the table that has a 1k bet mins starts kicking the houses ass with high percentage bets.  Now the pitboss it only watching this table which makes the box man uneasy which in turn makes the dealers uneasy because there bosses are watching every move they make.

Nope… that’s not how it works.  While higher level supervisors may wish to see what’s going on at the table, employees don’t catch heat from other employees unless they are doing something wrong - like cheating or making many mistakes.  Just because there is a chain of command there does not mean that a pit boss is the dealer’s boss (meaning that pit bosses generally do not have the authority to fire someone).  There is usually no reason for the box to feel uneasy just because a pit boss is watching.  You are misunderstanding the dynamics between casino employees. 

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

Now we all know these guys are tight knit groups and when everyone is stressed out because the house is loosing and everyone is on edge.

Again, aside from some smaller market casino that really sweat the money (and even then, neither dealers nor floors will care) - hardly anyone from dealer to pit boss is stressing out about table losses. 

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

So by icing you or skipping your turn these tactics end up getting you angry, off your game, and making it personal against the house.  Edge house.

This is your perception… you don’t know for a fact that anything you perceive as an act to ice you down, get you angry, or off your game is actually happening with the purpose to screw with you.

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

I am not sure if you have ever seen “the Cooler” its a awesome movie and I for one believe old school Vegas still uses these guys in addition to what I mentioned.

I have seen it, and while I like William H. Macy, I thought this movie was terrible.  I can’t speak for every casino in the country… but for the most part, I’m pretty sure the days of physically beating up people is over.  That’s why they call it “old school Vegas”. 

Greatest 7 Shooter in the World - 27 December 2011 04:02 PM

And when it comes to treatment of the dealers if I feel they are purposely messing with me or cheering for me to loose than yes I feel I have the right to let them know exactly how I feel about those tactics.  You might not agree with it but I am not trying to win a popularity contest I am there to take there money and they are going to do everything in there power to protect against it.

You absolutely have a right to let dealers know how you feel if they have upset you.  But that does not give you permission to yell at anybody.  Even the dealer who cheered your loss on the $2500 lay should not be yelled at.

I cannot imagine a dealer cheering someone’s loss, unless that someone was already acting like a total jerk.

bek423 - 31 December 2011 10:46 AM

I cannot imagine a dealer cheering someone’s loss, unless that someone was already acting like a total jerk.

In my experience, most casinos try to keep me from leaving by selling fun: the good times are “in here;” “out there” is reality.  Other casinos sell respect: “in here” I’m Mr. S.; “out there” I’m not even a number.  Still other casinos (by far the minority) challenge me to prove I’m a real gambler, which of course I can do only by owning the joint before going “out there” and admitting defeat.

It sounds like the cheering dealer has adopted, either on his own initiative or as part of his employer’s corporate strategy, a variation of the third (“prove you’re a gambler”) strategy: irritate the player to the point that he loses control and tries to beat the house into submission.  I encountered a similar dealer at The Nugget in Fallon, NV, around 20 years ago.  (As an aside I will mention that this experience was an anomaly.  Prior and subsequent sessions were enjoyable—but then that dealer was not present at those sessions.)  At the time the only apparent reason Fallon was more than a wide spot in a cow path was the Naval Air Station there, and so a significant number of casino patrons were Air Force personnel.  One such player would routinely take down his place bets after some number of hits or rolls—or maybe just because—after which, when one of his numbers hit, the dealer would announce a running total of money that player had not won by doing so.  This became rather tedious, particularly since the dealer did not announce the net won or lost after a 7-out.  I said to the dealer, “I would consider it a personal favor if you stopped doing that.”  “Oh, it’s part of the service,” he replied.  The toke well had run dry quite some time prior to this verbal exchange, and I informed the pit supe of this fact and the reason for it, which may be why I did not see that dealer at the craps table again.  I just now thought of the perfect come-back: “In that case I believe I will keep and announce a running total of the tips you won’t be getting to acknowledge that extra service.”

Regarding tipping…....If service is really bad I will leave maybe 3 pennies or so…...if you leave nothing they might think it was an oversight on your part…..by leaving something they know what you thought of their service. Somethiong like this would probably go over well at the tables, if it is truly deserved.

777

The Midnight Skulker - 05 January 2012 01:49 AM

In my experience, most casinos try to keep me from leaving by selling fun: the good times are “in here;” “out there” is reality.  Other casinos sell respect: “in here” I’m Mr. S.; “out there” I’m not even a number.  Still other casinos (by far the minority) challenge me to prove I’m a real gambler, which of course I can do only by owning the joint before going “out there” and admitting defeat.

As a somewhat off-topic aside I will give our intrepid administrator some props for attempting to filter out some of the spam we’ve been getting of late.  My previous post started with the parenthetical comment that the lead paragraph, quoted above, was extracted from the article at http://midnightskulker.casinocitytimes.com/article/where-has-all-my-money-gone-long-time-passing-6506.  Because the link contained the word “money” the post was rejected as spam.  Jacob has obviously revised the “black list”, and such revisions will undoubtedly be ongoing as legitimate links get rejected and the spammers become more innovative with their URLs.  Nevertheless, I appreciate his efforts to increase the signal-to-noise ratio and am willing to accept some sporadic inconvenience.